Politics related: Universal healthcare?

So one of this years big issues is universal healthcare. Being in the military it doesn't effect me...yet. Everyone tells me "ask the people in Canada if they like waiting years for appointments" So Im asking those of you in a country with Universal healthcare how you like it? Do you have to wait a long time for an appointment? Do the docs still care? How does your government pay for it? Just curious....

I just had my son seven months ago (In Ontario) and it did not cost me one penny. I LOVE that about the Canadian system. And since Midwives are covered in Ontario, I could go and interview midwives and have a midwife deliver my child instead of an obstetrition, in the hospital! I loved that. That service would cost more than I paid for university I think if I was in another country!!!
I love that I can take my child to the hospital and not have to worry how I will get the money to pay for it.
I love that when my mom got Cancer she was treated like a princess at the cancer center and loved and cared for very well by a world leader in Cancer research (and while there were some drug costs involved, we had a drug plan that covered thes). We did not have sell our house just because a family member got seriously ill.

There is the issue of shortage of doctors. I do not have a family doctor at the moment, so have to go into walkin clinics if I need something. I don't know if that is a problem elsewhere?

What I love the most is that the very poorest of our society are fully taken care of. I think that is what a society and a community is FOR. Older people can live at retirement or nursing homes funded by the governement and be taken care of (some are better than others, but at least they have SOMEWHERE to go) if they don't have famillies who are able to care for them. If you live on the street and don't have a penny you can still go to the hospital, see a doctor. If you are unemployed or self employed and don't have insurance through work you can still get what you need.

That's another huge benefit - it doesn't matter who our employer is. If sudenly my husband looses his job, we are still covered.

My children have a pediatrition and I make an appointment and NEVER have to wait. There are drop in hours, and we get in immediately. There are some wait time problems for some tests, screens, etc.
I am under the care of a oncologist (my mother died of cancer when she was young, so I am 'high risk') and have both a mammogram and an MRI EVERY YEAR (one of these every 6 months). I also had genetic testing to determine if there is a genetic predisposition to cancer in my genes (BRAC1 or BRAC2 - there isn't, I'm clear!) but it's fabulous and I get treated very well. I also don't have to worry or stress about developing cancer and not catching it, because really we can't do any more screening than that! I couldn't IMAGINE having to pay for those things out of my pocket! And my husband didn't have health insurance until last year. Not every employer here has it.

Last month my thyroid swoll up something crazy, so I went to the urgent care clinic. I had to wait about an hour to see the doctor, I had blood work done that day and came back the next day for my ultrasound on it. I have an appointment with the endocryinologist mid September. It's not like it's urgent. I don't know if that's a long time to wait or not?

More info...

This is from Wikipedia and pretty interesting....

"The average tax rate in Canada is higher than in the United States. In Canada total tax and non-tax revenue for every level of government equals about 37% of GDP, [1] compared to the U.S. rate of 27%"
"For its higher taxes Canada has a larger system of social programs than the United States. This includes having a national broadcaster in the CBC, a largely government-funded health care system, and having all major universities receive partial government funding. The United States, however, does have most of its major universities subsidized by state government. The US also has two national public broadcasters which receive partial government funding, PBS (television) and NPR (radio).

The greatest difference in social programs is in health care. Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. Government spends as much on health care, 7% of GDP, as the Canadian government does,[9] and total healthcare spending is much higher - 14.6% of GDP in the US vs. 10% in Canada.[10] Canadians, however, receive comparable care and some figures such as life expectancy and infant mortality are better in Canada. Another advantage is that the Canadian health care system is said by some to be attractive to employers, as in Canada health care is mostly paid through employee income taxes, while in the United States most companies have to extend health benefits to full-time employees, something they do not have to do in Canada. Many employers, however, still offer employees additional medical coverage plans because some medical services may not be fully covered by the governmentun health insurance system. The main disadvantage of the Canadian system are the long lines and waiting periods that have appeared over the last 15 years for some services, especially for minor and non-life threatening procedures. For this reason, some relatively wealthy Canadians go to the United States, India, or other nations[11] to avoid waiting for medical treatment, joining " medical tourists" from many nations, including the US.[12] Some Canadians who can afford it, undergo operations at private healthcare facilities at their own expense; some Canadians, unfortunately, are occasionally required to endure delays in both screenings (such as MRI scans) and in non-emergency operations for which a delay can be life-threatening. Additionally, a number of medical tests and screenings are not covered (or due to increasing costs, are no longer covered) by the Canadian health system, forcing patients to pay for these services out of their own pockets. Despite these sporadic problems, some people hold that Canada's healthcare performance is generally on par with, or better than, the US, in that healthcare coverage is universal for Canadians."

"Through all entities in its public-private system, the U.S. spends more per capita than any other nation in the world,[11] but is the only wealthy industrialized country in the world that lacks some form of universal health care."

"In the World Health Organization's ratings of health care system performance among 191 member nations published in 2000, Canada ranked 30th and the U.S. 37th, while the overall health of Canadians was ranked 35th and Americans 72nd"

"In terms of population health, life expectancy in 2006 was about two and a half years longer in Canada, with Canadians living to an average of 79.9 years and Americans 77.5 years.[85] Infant and child mortality rates are also higher in the U.S"


I have never lived elsewhere, but the though of living in a country that didn't have universal health care actually scares me. I would be terrified of getting sick, or of a family member getting sick!!! I am afraid even visiting the USA. For me, I want to live in a society where everyone is taken care of, at least at a minimal level. If that means I have to wait a little bit longer for the treatment I need, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

I love how it's over exaggerated to the extent that we wait YEARS for appointments. LMAO! There are a shortage of doctors, but it's not THAT bad - if you're willing to see a doctor that isn't necessarily your family doctor, you can see someone that day. If I want to see my family doctor, it's usually 1-2 weeks wait, unless it's an emergency.

But, if you NEED to see a doctor, you're covered, and you will see someone. We pay a little bit each year for our healthcare (it ends up being like $400/year or something, lol...not much) and you can buy additional insurance to pay for things like chiropractor, dentist, prescriptions, etc. DH gets both paid for through his work.

My brother-in-law's brother had a very serious illness that went untreated for a long time because he couldn't get in to see a specialist. But they live in a tiny town in Alberta. I don't know that it would have been any different had he lived in a small town in Idaho and had to wait to get an appointment in the next closest city.

mcardall said:

My brother-in-law's brother had a very serious illness that went untreated for a long time because he couldn't get in to see a specialist. But they live in a tiny town in Alberta. I don't know that it would have been any different had he lived in a small town in Idaho and had to wait to get an appointment in the next closest city.

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Specialists are hard to get in to no matter where you live...but it also depends a lot on the doctors you are seeing. For instance...Mason was rushed to the city and saw an oncology specialist almost immediately when we got there because our family doctor did bloodwork and realized there was something wrong right away. On the other hand, cousins of ours took their daughter to the same hospital as we took Mason originally (we live in the same small town), and the hospital called the doctor on call (which didn't end up being their family doctor, which is the same is ours)...she was having a severe asthma attack and couldn't breathe - she was literally turning blue and the doctor wasn't interested in coming in to see what was wrong. They had to FIRE him and demand to see their family doctor, who rushed to the hospital and immediately had her airlifted to the city for treatment. Doesn't matter what country you live in, you can get doctors that just don't give a crap and you end up in bad situations, because they don't push to have their patients seen faster.

Not in Canada, but grew up there and I now live in Denmark which also has universal healthcare. The longest I EVER had to wait for a specialist in Canada was 2 months and always got in to see my DR. the same day! Here (in Denmark) the longest I have had to wait to see a specialist was 1 month and that was because she was the only woman gyno in this area and popular. I always get into my DR. the same day I call. Not to mention that is I have a sick kid ot am sick myself at night all I have to do is call the DR. hotline and they SEND a DR. to my house FREE of charge! It's been a lifesaver a couple of time when the kids were younger!! I agree with Bree, peole seem to love to exagerate the wait times and I always hear people say "my cousin's brother's wife 3 times removed died because she had to wait so long for a dr." LOL

Thanks for everyones response...it helps to get some of the facts
Universal Healthcare is pretty much what I have in the military...I dont get to pick my own doctor, it takes awhile to see a specialist (about a month) and I dont pay for any of it I think I can live with that Thanks again

We actually DO get to choose are own DR. Here and I believe in Canada you can also.

I guess I'll be the 1st to speak out against it. Don't blast me ok... lol. We too are a military family and, while our healthcare is FREE I think I would rather pay for insurance and have the luxury of choosing my own doctors and being able to see the same one each time. It's very frustrating for me to go to the Dr. and have to explain my situation EVERY single time because I never get to see one Dr. long enough to get to know me. You kinda just have to put your health in the hands of the system and hope everything works out. And the issue of the Dr.s isn't the only one for me. Have you ever been to the DMV on a busy day? I'm pretty sure that's what it will be like to visit a health clinic if we DO adopt Universal Care, because that's what it's like for the military and their dependents. When you think about the number of people using the Dept of Defense health system... it's probably about 2% of the population... and it's already jacked up. Remember the issues with Walter Reed Medical Center? Just think of what a cluster it would be if we 100% of the population were using it. AND, with the Govt. running your health care, you have no recourse if they make a mistake. If I go in for an apendectomy and they cut off one of my legs... I'm out of luck. I CAN NOT sue for damages.

Then there's the question of who will pay for it. Of course it will be the tax payers. Germany has Universal Health Care, paid college tuition for anyone who wants it, and great roads... but they are taxed nearly 60% of their income. Are we willing to pay THAT much for free Dr.s?

I agree that something needs to be done about the price of health insurance... especially for people on a fixed income. My Dad has been retired for 8 years, worked his whole life for the Plumbers & Pipefitters Union, has a good pension, but still has to work a small job for more health coverage for himself and my mom. How do we meet in the middle?

I have my own doctor, and I get to choose which doctor I see, every time. I don't see a different doctor each time, I've had my same doctor for over two years. The waits for specialists are a couple of months, depending on how serious it is. When I was having a miscarriage with my first pregnancy, I seen an OB and got an ultrasound and blood work within a couple of hours. When Benjamin broke his leg, he saw a paediatric bone specialist within an hour. They do have allowances for things like this.

Our taxes are based on how much we make (the percentage) and while I'm sure in the US it seems high, it does not for me, because with the cost of insurance that you have to pay privately, I really wonder if it is it really that much difference?

The government doesn't run our healthcare per se, they mostly just pay for it. You have to remember that the PROVINCES, not the Federal Government runs the system, so you get variations from province to province. We choose the doctors we see. They don't tell us who we can and can't see, what tests we can and can't get completed. Our doctors send us for tests as any doctor would, anywhere. I went to an GYN/OB last week, and need surgery, and I will be going for that on Wednesday. It isn't life threatening, merely an annoyance, so I am more than happy with the time frame that it will be completed, not even two weeks in between. I do NOT live in a big city...we are over an hour to the nearest Mc Donald's and Wal Mart.

Anyway, I'm barely awake this morning yet, but I love our system mostly. It is NOT perfect, please know I'm not saying that LOL. There are some problems, as there are in any system, some worse than others, but one thing is for sure, I have NEVER waited any more than a few months for a specialist appt, definitely not years LOL. But I am thankful every day that I don't have to choose between seeing a doctor, and buying food. I have plenty of online friends, who have health issues, and due to finances have not been able to take care of them.

Laura_A said:

How do we meet in the middle?

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IMO we meet in the middle by deregulating health insurance and allowing competition across state lines. Competition will bring prices down and will make healthcare more affordable. Capitalism works - but it can't be strangled to death by big government and heavy regulations that don't allow competition in the marketplace.

(oops! did I mention I'm a quasi libertarian? :thumbup: )

Okay, I know I wrote a lot before, but I have more to add.

One thing that I've heard is that the hospitals in USA are beautiful, like hotels inside. Ours are not pretty. I think that health care in Canada is fairly inexpensive, because it has to be the way it is funded. Anyone care to comment on the aesthetic nature of their hospitals?

Oh, and about choosing doctors - I choose my personal family doctor, a woman, when I was 16 and 'outgrew' my pediatrition. She was AWESOME, she would sit and talk through all sorts of things with me. Unfortunetly, she got overstressed and had some issues and quit her practice suddenly two years ago, leaving me with no one. I havn't been able to find another doctor I liked. (One near me was accepting patients, but he was a very harsh older man who's english I could barely understand and so I think I'll keep waiting and looking for now!)

I found a pediatrition for my children who has the same parenting sensibilities as me, and whos advice I would be likely to agree with.

In Ontario, I do know doctors are only 'paid' for 7 minutes with each patient. So when you go to see a doctor you have to keep it quick. That's one thing that I wish was different. (this is why I opted to have a midwife supervise my pregnancy and delivery, they are 'paid' to have 45 mintues with me each visit, and I could book a 'double visit' without any trouble if I wanted to... AND they came to my house sometimes and went through delivery and stayed with me for 3 hours afterwards!!!)

I don't know if it's just because I live in a bigish city, but I feel there is a LOT of choice. I choose one hospital to deliver my children in over another because they have different types of birthing rooms (with giant hot tubs, and big soft couches and you can labour, deliever and recover in them).

When my baby girl was so sick - we took her to emergency because it was thanksgiving weekend and my ped. was off and yes we had to wait 8 hours before she was in a bed ( we were in a small room of our own in emergency though) and saw piles of doctors during that time, she had surgery less than 24 hours after entering the hospital. We didn't get to 'choose' our surgen. I think that's pretty quick.

I've lived in France and in Switzerland, with 2 slightly different systems. Here in France we have universal healthcare that covers the basics. You still have a very small fee each time you see your doc (like 1 euro, 1.5 $) or specialist. You can choose your "family doctor" and you then have to go to the same doc all the time (unless he's MIA). You're free to change but you have to make him fill a form so that the new one becomes your family doctor again. The healthcare covers doc's visits and some meds as well. We though have to pay for an extra insurance if we want to use "natural medicine" like homeopathy or chiropactor. The extra insurance will also cover some extras that are not covered by the universal one, like having a private room at hospital, some meds that are not completely covered, etc.

In Switzerland you have to have a health insurance, but you can choose between all the private companies, depending on what you want to have covered (just the basics or some extras) and how much you want to spend. They can't refuse to take someone for the basics but they can refuse the extras. For example, they refused me for "natural medicines" because I have food allergies, and it's considered a chronic disease... I thought that was stupid because it's a disease only if I eat some specific foods, but anyway...

In both countries I never had to wait for a very long time to go to the doc. My family doctor gives me an appointement within 24 hours generally (or can even come home if I ask him to or if I'm too sick to get out) and my gyn usually takes me in within 1-2 week(s) if it's not an emergency. Some specialists take much more time to get an appointement, though. You gotta wait for 4-6 months for eye doctors (how do you say in english???), for example.

Laura_A said:

I guess I'll be the 1st to speak out against it. Don't blast me ok... lol. We too are a military family and, while our healthcare is FREE I think I would rather pay for insurance and have the luxury of choosing my own doctors and being able to see the same one each time. It's very frustrating for me to go to the Dr. and have to explain my situation EVERY single time because I never get to see one Dr. long enough to get to know me. You kinda just have to put your health in the hands of the system and hope everything works out. And the issue of the Dr.s isn't the only one for me. Have you ever been to the DMV on a busy day? I'm pretty sure that's what it will be like to visit a health clinic if we DO adopt Universal Care, because that's what it's like for the military and their dependents. When you think about the number of people using the Dept of Defense health system... it's probably about 2% of the population... and it's already jacked up. Remember the issues with Walter Reed Medical Center? Just think of what a cluster it would be if we 100% of the population were using it. AND, with the Govt. running your health care, you have no recourse if they make a mistake. If I go in for an apendectomy and they cut off one of my legs... I'm out of luck. I CAN NOT sue for damages.

Then there's the question of who will pay for it. Of course it will be the tax payers. Germany has Universal Health Care, paid college tuition for anyone who wants it, and great roads... but they are taxed nearly 60% of their income. Are we willing to pay THAT much for free Dr.s?

I agree that something needs to be done about the price of health insurance... especially for people on a fixed income. My Dad has been retired for 8 years, worked his whole life for the Plumbers & Pipefitters Union, has a good pension, but still has to work a small job for more health coverage for himself and my mom. How do we meet in the middle?

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really good insight.

stayawake said:

One thing that I've heard is that the hospitals in USA are beautiful, like hotels inside. Ours are not pretty. I think that health care in Canada is fairly inexpensive, because it has to be the way it is funded. Anyone care to comment on the aesthetic nature of their hospitals?

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ummm...not like hotels. i mean i suppose some can be quite nice, most are just pretty average and kept up. they def have a more homey feel to them rather than an old school sterile hospital atmosphere.

Laura_A said:

AND, with the Govt. running your health care, you have no recourse if they make a mistake. If I go in for an appendectomy and they cut off one of my legs... I'm out of luck. I CAN NOT sue for damages.

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Do you know that for sure Laura? I wouldn't think that just because the gov't pays for our health care, that doesn't mean there's no recourse for a doctor who makes a mistake.

For me, the only complaint I have is waiting 3 weeks to see a doctor when I am in pain. There is a shortage of doctors which means every doctor has more patients and constantly double books. Good thing we have a walk-in clinic that I can go to for things like colds and UTI's. The only thing I go to my family doctor now (whom I LOVE) is paps, referrals and refills to an ongoing prescription I have.

We pay about $200 a month for our private insurance, but it pays for 100% of our meds and has good eye care coverage. Right now I'm waiting for a diagnosis on something and if it is what I think it is, it'll be a good thing I'm covered for 100% of my meds because it's gonna be expensive!

Yes, we can sue for malpractice here.

Well, all I know is the US system is FAR from perfect. Sure, there are wait times in countries that have universal healthcare, but there are also HUGE wait times here in the US. Ever try seeing a specialist for something that isn't life threatening? You have to wait. I live in the Boston area, which arguably has the best medical care in the world (Harvard, Mass Gen, Brigham & Womens, Beth Israel, Tufts NEMC, etc) and there are UNGODLY wait times to see specialist.

Here is a personal example I can share with you. My son was born extremely prematurely and has very significant developmental delays. I just recently tried to get an appointment with his Neuropsychologist and she hasn't even returned my calls (and I have called 3 times in 2 two weeks). I am now trying to find another neuropsych or developmental MD and have been informed that the waitlist for either one of these is 6 MONTHS at a minimum! Maybe up to 1 year!

So, I am not sure why universal healthcare gets such a bum rap and the US thinks it has terrific healthcare. It just isn't true. It is a bunch of hype drummed up by the health insurance companies so that THEY can stay in business making the bulk of the profit.

Why on earth is healthcare in the US a profit center? We don't privatize the fire department, the police force, or infrastructure (roads and bridges). These are all "socialized" services in the US. Can you imagine if they were profits centers? You call 911 and oops you can't get a fire truck at your house because you didn't buy the fire protection insurance policy. It is ridiculous and a moral outrage in my opinion. At the very LEAST every CHILD in this country should be covered.

And if you think you aren't paying taxes to cover healthcare costs for the uninsured, you are wrong. It actually costs much MORE they way we do it in the US. Those that don't have insurance don't get regular check ups, so they end up having to use the emergency room more often for things that could have been prevented and that ends up costing YOU the tax payer more money.

Oh, and for those that CAN afford it, we could also offer supplemental insurance, that each person could choose to purchase or not, if they want a higher standard of care (quicker wait times, etc). I know that some countries already do this and it works.

Our system in the US is completely broken. Bring on universal healthcare! Don't even get me started on the pharmaceutical industry. It is hard to decide which industry is worse.

Susan

PS - in case you are interested, here are some facts about the "great" US healthcare system:

1. In a study of older Americans and Brits, the Brits had less of almost every major disease. Even the poorest Brit can expect to live longer than the richest American.

2. There is a company in France, SOS Medecins, which will perform doctor house calls at any time.

3. "The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds." "World Health Organization Assesses The World's Health Systems," Press Release, WHO/44, June 21, 2000.

4. The 2006 United Nations Human Development Report's human development index states the life expectancy in the United States is 77.5, and the life expectancy in Canada is 80.2. - Human Development Report 2006, United Nations Development Programme, 2006 at 283.

5. According to Statistics Canada, the official government statistical agency, "In 2005, the median waiting time was about 4 weeks for specialist visits, 4 weeks for non-emergency surgery, and 3 weeks for diagnostic tests. Nationally, median waiting times remained stable between 2003 and 2005 - but there were some differences at the provincial level for selected specialized services.… 70 to 80 percent of Canadians find their waiting times acceptable" "Access to health care services in Canada, Waiting times for specialized services (January to December 2005)," - Statistics Canada

6. A recent study of emergency care in Ontario found that overall, "50% of patients triaged as CTAS I [most acute] were seen by a physician within 6 minutes and 86% were seen within 30 minutes of arriving at the [Emergency Department]. In contrast, the 50% of patients triaged as CTAS IV or V who were seen most quickly waited an hour or less, while 1 in 10 waited three hours or more. - Understanding Emergency Department Wait Times: How Long Do People Spend in Emergency Departments in Ontario? Canadian Institute for Health Information, January 2007.

7. According to the Institute of Medicine, "lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States. Although America leads the world in spending on health care, it is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage." Insuring America's Health: Principles and Recommendations, Institute of Medicine, January 2004.

yeah, the last time I tried to make an appointment with my OBGYN, the wait was 7 MONTHS! And my son's neurologist -- for a non-emergency was 2 months. So, the waiting time is plenty long here in the US too.

In general, I think it's outrageous that people can lose everything they have because fate hands them, say, a child who gets cancer. It's not their fault and they have a hard enough road without throwing them into poverty too. I think health care should be a basic human right.

I miss having the military insurance. yah, we couldn't choose our own doctor and that got annoying, but atleast i knew that if something happened i could go. right now, being out of the military now we have no insurance. DH is a veteran and he is covered for life with them. we though when he started getting his social security benefits we would all be covered under medicaid but we just found out we're not. so i'm tryin to get on Hoosier Healthwise (same as medicaid i think). I have to go Monday and fax more info to them and hope that we qualify or i don't know what we'll do. Emma needs some work done on her front teeth and other than getting a line of credit through Care Credit i don't know what we'll do if we don't get this insurance. I'm loosing sleep over this, lol. I feel bad that its my fault Emma's teeth are like this (milk in bottles at night) and i'm trying to get insurance but if they deny us its going to suck.

the US needs to improve our healthcare so that everyone can get help when they need it.

I definitely think that it's a crock o' sh$* that people think wait times in the US are reasonable. I once sat in an emergency room, bleeding from the head, for 6 hours before I was seen. When I got referrals to my neurologist and gastrointerologist, it was a 3.5 month wait. And if I don't schedule my next appt as I'm leaving the current one, guaranteed to wait an extra month or two to get an appt.

US Healthcare is seriously broken. It doesn't make sense to have clinics, but also private dr's but also this and that. It's like having 4 systems depending on who you are or what you make, and all of them are broken. I had more issues with my health insurance last year than I care to remember, and I know I'll end up with similar problems this year regarding my prescriptions.

If we're already spending all this money on a broken healthcare system, why not take the same funding, and put it into a universal system? Yea our taxes would go up, but when you're already paying like $1,000 or $2,000 for your seperate health insurance and prescriptions, wtf is the difference?

I dunno.. honestly, this is the first time I've heard really positive things about universal health care in canada. Most canadians that I know, while grateful that their health care is free, do nothing but complain about it (lol). Long long waits for everything. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule- but I seriously am begining to wonder if those getting in quickly ARE the exceptions.
We do have state medical here for low income families- and while it's not the best program ever, I think it does help a LOT. If people didn't abuse the system I think there wouldn't be as many problems with it. I lost my job after I found out I Was pregnant with connor (and subsequently my health insurance), and was unable to go back to work due to a high risk pregnancy, I got on state care and my entire pregnancy/labour/delivery/etc was covered. We racked up some serious bills as he was in the nicu for a week & I was in the hospital for 9days.. so yeh-- without that I would have been screwed... like I said our system IS flawed, just like canada's system has it's flaws.. I think we just need to find the middle ground.

Let's see.

I have TOP of the LINE insurance through my work. Seriously, when doctors catch wind of my insurance card all of sudden, it's "Yes, Ma'am..."

I can choose my own doctors and pay only $5 a Rx.

I called at the beginning of June to schedule a school physical for my daughter. I was told that I'd have to wait until the end of Sept. This was with her ped! I couldn't wait that long considering that school started in mid Aug.

I ended up taking her to a walk in clinic. We had an appointment. There were no other patients in the office. We waited for over 5 hours. When we finally got in I asked what the problem was. Apparently the doctor was on a conference call. I was furious, however my hands were tied, I needed to have this done.

Hospital wait times vary depending on how populated the area is and how many hospitals in the area take the uninsured. Where I live there is only ONE hospital. It's not uncommon to wait for hours. I once took my son into the ER around 7 pm. He was in severe pain in his abdominal area. His ped said take him in, sounds like appendicitis. We weren't even called into the triage area until 2 am. We finally got a gurney in the hallway around 4 am. The nurses would walk by me and ask if I needed a sedative because I was crying. I said, I'm crying because I'm exhausted and need to sleep!

I've also been in the same hospital when my son was in a dirtbike accident. We were ambulanced over 100 miles there and seen right away. The funny thing is, Alex wasn't even hurt. He was taken in strictly as a precaution.

My husband has a different insurance and can't use mine. We get both through our jobs and neither one of us are allowed to "cash" out. His is through Kaiser. It's not uncommon for him to wait a year to see the specialist. He has to get referrals for everything.

And then there is the issue of dental insurance...don't get me started. Again, two premium plans and we still had to pay over 13K for hubby last month.

ITA with everything Susan wrote.

Let me add this in as well....

My 2 year old has some health issues, and because of them, she has a couple different specialists she sees. The minimum wait for us to get into to see her endocrinologist is 3 months, and that's the minimum. Same with getting either kid into see the GI. And we live 4 hours away from these specialists! Our family doctor we have to wait a month to get into see!

Another example of how backwards the US healthcare system is:

When our family moved from Texas to Florida in 2004, we'd just had Devin evaluated by "Bright Start," Texas' early intervention program. They faxed his results on for us and we were assured that we'd be seen ASAP. We were even given the name of a case worker. Within a couple weeks of arrival, I called this woman, fully expecting to be told that we'd wait a month or two...something I had NO problem with at the time. I was shocked when she informed me that I'd need a MEDICAL diagnosis before Florida's EI program could even look at D.

Trust me, it gets worse...I'm not getting on EI in Florida for this one even though I still believe this woman was wrong in what she told me.

DH & I found Devin a pediatrician, whom we all adored, especially Devin. (Big deal since he's not a fan of doctors at all!) Dr. K was an amazing advocate for Devin, I wish we could have packed her up and brought her to WI with us the next year. Anyway...she gave us referrals to speech therapists, behavioral psychologists/psychiatrists, neurologist...the works. We saw all except the speech therapist. The neuro and the BPs said, "Oh, he's just young. He'll outgrow it all." The speech therapist is where the insurance issue comes into play.

Here's how it worked:

1) Our insurance covered speech therapy office visits.
2) The speech therapist accepted our insurance.

Sounds great, right?

3) The speech therapist (the only one available on our insurance) only did home visits.
4) Our insurance didn't cover home visits.

See the dilemma??

We went dizzy with all the circles we ran in to figure this out. We only lived in Florida for 15 months...Devin never did get evaluated by EI because we never got a diagnosis of any sort. Yes, his pedi could have given one, but she admitted to not feeling qualified for THAT aspect of his health care. At the same time, she did agree that something was wrong.

We moved to Wisconsin, had D evaluated (by the school district since he was only a month off from being three by this time) and in a special education preschool within weeks. We had official diagnoses before Christmas (we moved here in late September), all because our health insurance didn't have its head up its arse. The BPs and neuro who said nothing was wrong received letters from me with copies of those diagnoses...PDD-NOS (he actually has Asperger's, but it's listed as PDD-NOS for the time being), generalized anxiety disorder, oppositional defiance disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, sensory integration/processing disorder, hyperlexia, and non-verbal learning disorder. (ADHD, minus the AD was recently added.)

Honestly, no system is or can be perfect. The US system though, is truly one of the WORST so far as insurance goes. The health care itself is worthwhile, it's just the ability to get that care that needs revamping.

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Now playing: 7 Days To Change Your Life - Jamie Cullum
via FoxyTunes

I love this clause with my insurance:

Psych is only covered IF you are hospitalized.
You can't see a psychologist or psychiatrist for care, only if you are hospitalized. Gotta love that one.

I dunno..I still say it varies from place to place/person to person. There are some people who've had great experiences with BOTH health care systems (canada/us) obviously, and some who have had bloody awful experiences. I really don't think jus swapping one system out for another is the solution. Health care as awhole needs to be reformed-- not just the way it is funded/paid for. I never had any problems getting ce into see specialists (GI and getting him into the childrens hospital for and upper and lower).. there was hardly any wait, and I've never had problems with appointments.

In a lot of cases, it's not the system that is borked, but the dr's in it.

The military system is broken too. Like Amber said, we can't pick our own doctors, I have a cyst that I'm having removed, well, it took them 4 years to refer me to someone to actually get it taken care of.

All I do is complain about military doctors. Not that they're bad, but the military doesn't care if you come back to them, they still get paid regardless, the try to do everything cheap, while a civillian doctor, they want your business, so they'll try to keep you happy.

I'm sure the universal health care is about like the military doctors. We have long waits here too, depending on what you want. The big wait times I see are in peds here, there are just too many babies born to take care of I think. LOL!

I honestly don't know if we'll ever be able to have a great healthcare system. I can imagine a lot of problems w/ our doctors switching over to this kind of system. I think, in theory, it sounds amazing... and I wish we didn't have to worry about having insurance, but I honestly don't see how the US will ever be able to establish a good universal system.

We have govt. funded health insurance because we are low income and in school... and it has been awesome. I didn't pay a single penny for my OBGYN appts/delivery/hospital stay. I never even had to pay a copay. My DD's pediatrician is awesome. The problem is with perscriptions though. DH gets HORRIBLE migraines and it won't even cover a piece of the kind of perscription he needs. I just found out now that I'm done nursing and needing to go on the pill that it won't even cover BC pills... apparently the plan I chose is funded by a Catholic organization... lol. Great.

There are options for low-income families, but I don't think most people know how to access those resources. It is unfortunate though when people barely make too much and don't qualify even though they really can't afford to pay for their own insurance. We do need to rethink health care, but I'm not sure what needs to happen.

We are right in that group Megan is talking about... make too much to qualify for state healthcare, but not enough to have private insurance. We just found out that my husband's company was approved for group coverage so we are ecstatic! I commented earlier about my brother-in-law's brother's experience in Canada waiting for a specialist and that it isn't any different here. I don't think that Universal Healthcare is the answer. My dad is an executive for a large insurance company. He isn't rich. He's upper-middle class but he isn't getting rich off the ridiculous premiums people have to pay. And he spends hours and hours every single day of his life trying to fix what's broken. Medical care costs money. A LOT of money. MRI machines cost money. Facilities and utilities cost money. Doctors have to get paid. And with the cost of malpractice insurance these days, most of them aren't getting rich either. I think that letting capitalism decide won't be completely effective either. There has to be some federal regulation or no one would ever get approved for health insurance. In order to lower premiums, insurance companies would simply stop providing coverage to people with pre-existing conditions. And I am guessing that genetic testing to find out what disorders people are pre-disposed to would be become a common practice.

Healthcare in the US isn't perfect. But it isn't perfect in many places. Personally, I don't want my taxes to go up to pay for someone else to have insurance care. BUT at the same time, if it were MY child who had cancer or some other illness and I couldn't afford the healthcare, I don't know what I would do. Just like everything else that becomes a government program here in the US, universal healthcare HERE would be a huge paper mess. And we know how much we digi girls & boy LOVE paper! Just applying for state insurance was a complete NIGHTMARE! They wouldn't even tell me how the premiums would possibly be until after I applied and was denied. It's awful! Not to mention how much the economy would hurt. Our doctors and "rich" insurance executives pay a LOT of taxes. When their incomes decrease it's just going to make a bigger middle class. My brother-in-law is from Canada. He is living here in the states with his wife and baby. He is trying to get into med school right now. I asked him if he would consider going back to Canada to practice. He said that the only way he would do that is if the US went to a universal healthcare system as well. My other brother-in-law is in med school now and he is worried about how he will be able to pay back student loans after he is done if we switch to Universal Healthcare. He has hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt.

Anyway... that's my 5cents since I always include more than 2cents worth.

But part of your taxes already go to state healthcare. And like you said, you got denied. So why should you pay for it and not be able to use it? And you're paying for that, plus paying out of pocket for health insurance since you got denied by the state.

Sigh. This is a big problem and a really complicated one in the US and I'm not sure universal health care would "fix" it. Maybe that's because, like Laura and Vanessa, I'm seeing things from a military health care perspective, which seems to me is universal care on a smaller scale. (I will say this though...Laura is right about no recourse for mistakes in military health care for service members. DH had to have shoulder surgery *twice* because they addressed the wrong area of his shoulder the first time. A friend has a debilitating condition as a result of multiple surgeries to fix what was a botched treatment of an ulcer. Neither have any recourse. As I understand it, dependents however, *do* have recourse).

Don't get me wrong..I don't talk about this much and I don't feel I have the right to complain very much because we are blessed to have coverage. I was able to deliver my daughter without worries, DH had is surgeries covered no problem, etc. On the other hand, I didn't have *any* interaction with the doctor who delivered DD before the day I was admitted and gave birth and he was looking me in the va-jay-jay. DH sees someone different most every time he goes to the flight doctor. I see someone different as well. We both have to repeatedly explain everything, despite charts to our providers. Wait times are pretty horrible (but I don't think that's unique). Very little patient "choice". Little to no emphasis on preventative care (I was looked at cross-eyed when I asked to be scheduled for a non-gyno physical). And blah, blah, blah.

I also think that comparisons to universal health care in other countries might not give us the best idea of how it would work *here*. There's a lot of issues to be addressed, IMO. Access issues, insurance overhaul, tort issues, the impact of special interests on the climate of our health care system...and while this is controversial we need to know how we'd approach it with the very many illegal immigrants here. Not to mention I think the whole foundation of our current system is bootwhack to begin with. I believe it should be one built on a foundation of preventative health care not treating things only when they are wrong, kwim? Regular physicals and screenings, education programs, and alternative preventative health care methods need to be covered and on and on and on.

All that said...I do believe we need to solve this problem and I do believe everyone deserves coverage. Quality care and afforadable coverage. I hope we can figure it out sooner rather than later. Our children deserve a system that isn't broken. And I hope I'm not smoking the peace pipe and this is actually an achievable ideal.

*end of ramble*

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. I'm in the US, have health insurance through my husband's work. But I have to agree.

We still wait for specialists. For example, it was recommended that I take my youngest DD to a pediatric developmental specialist. When I called to make the appointment, their schedule was booked so far out that they told me they'd call me back in about 3 months JUST TO BOOK the appointment for her. And yes, it did take 3 months to book the appointment, but they called. The appointment was scheduled for 10 months after my original phone call.

And another thing. Our area is "dominated" by one hospital and its outreach clinics. If you have to see a doctor whose office is located IN the hospital, they charge you a "facility" fee. What should have been a $25 co-pay for a specialist visit with my insurance turned into a $104 bill, because of that "facility" charge. Times two, mind you, because both my DDs were seen that day. And yet on that particular visit, the nurses were too busy to take vital signs, and I was handed a paper on my way out to have them taken to our pediatrician to have those done before their surgery. WHAT? Another doc's visit, another $15 per girl, because they were too busy to take temps and blood pressure that day.

So no matter how you look at it, it's ridiculous. And I honestly dont know what the right answer is, but whatever it is, it will take years to be changed in this country.