Interesting.... (politics AGAIN, sorry)

[ColleenSwerb]

An interesting article. The Wall Street Journal breaks down Obama's tax reforms, and discusses McCain's in a related article linked near the bottom.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html

[Traci Reed]

You have to know that The Wall Street Journal was just bought by the same people that own Fox News which is the biggest republican propaganda machine in the country :)

[pbumbaca]

I did not know that, thanks Traci!

[Traci Reed]

Yep. All my instructors have just said that the WSJ is no longer a reliable source of information and should not be used in reports unless it is an older issue before they were bought.

[ColleenSwerb]

Yep. All my instructors have just said that the WSJ is no longer a reliable source of information and should not be used in reports unless it is an older issue before they were bought.

OMG! LOL! That's hysterical, and I totally didn't know that.

[Traci Reed]

LMAO...

Here are some links:

WSJ Buyout (http://blog.wired.com/business/2007/08/confirmed-murdo.html)
Fox Attacks (http://foxattacks.com/facts.php)
Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting (http://www.fair.org/index.php)

[kscwgirl]

Here's a chart that was in Parade Magazine last Sunday. The information in the chart comes from www.taxpolicycenter.org which to my knowledge, has no bias.

http://www.parade.com/news/intelligenceeport/archive/how-much-would-you-pay-taxes.html

[ColleenSwerb]

Here's a chart that was in Parade Magazine last Sunday. The information in the chart comes from www.taxpolicycenter.org which to my knowledge, has no bias.

http://www.parade.com/news/intelligenceeport/archive/how-much-would-you-pay-taxes.html

Right, but then if you read the comments on the parade article, that's not the whole truth either.

I'm so sick of this. Nothing is straightforward and honest anymore. Effing politicians.

[Traci Reed]

the taxpolicycenter one seemed pretty unbiased...i googled the companies they're sponsored by and most are non profit etc.

[kscwgirl]

Right, but then if you read the comments on the parade article, that's not the whole truth either.

I'm so sick of this. Nothing is straightforward and honest anymore. Effing politicians.

I don't pay any attention to the comments. LOL Just the chart and the taxpolicycenter website. :)

[Nettio]

Thanks for the info Traci! I was wondering as I was reading that article. :D

This is another chart of that same tax policy info but I think it does a better job graphically of displaying the differences:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

[Traci Reed]

ooh that's a neat chart. I like how McCain's campaign says there is a tax cut for everyone but the poorest people get back like $319 or less and the richest get back in the 100s of thousands, cause they need it, right?

[my3hens]

Wow Lynette that really does put things in perspective. Great chart! Really breaks things down for me cause Im slow and a very visual person lOL

[jessica31876]

I dont really know what to believe Fox news is supposedly biased but from my veiws every other news channel thinks Obama walks on water is our savior in the hard times coming. I think its all crap. In my opinion every politician lies and says what needs to be said to get into office. I dont trust any politician anymore. And from what that article says it doesnt seem like any of those tax credits would benefit my family anyhow. We do not buy new cars, we do not pay child support or child care, we own our own home with no mortgage...Ive read alot on Mccain and some on Obama and agree on alot of things Mccain says but still say I just do not trust politicians.

[ColleenSwerb]

I just haven't seen an article or chart yet, that addresses what happens when Bush's tax cuts expire in 2010. At this point, that's my main source of confusion.

[Traci Reed]

one of Lynette's articles says that both candidates propose to leave them as they are..I think. Re-up them.

[Traci Reed]

oops, not lynnette's, sara's

[Traci Reed]

From this one: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=411759

A. Proposed Extensions of the 2001 and 2003 Tax Acts
Both Senator McCain and Senator Obama would extend most provisions of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts (EGTRRA and JGTRRA), which are scheduled to expire after 2010. Under current law, the 10 percent income tax bracket will disappear in 2011 and the 25, 28, 33, and 35 percent brackets will increase to 28, 31, 36, and 39.6 percent, respectively. Senator McCain would extend the statutory rate schedule established by EGTRRA and JGTRRA. Senator Obama would extend the 10, 15, 25, and 28 percent tax rates but restore the 36 and 39.6 percent rates imposed on the highest income taxpayers.

[ColleenSwerb]

Yup, I just found that Traci, thanks :)

[jessica31876]

ok here is what the tax liability table breaks down last year while it seems like mccain would be giving alot back it is still a heck of alot that the top bracket incomes pay in if you look at the total they pay in taxes compared to lower incomes. I just wonder how many people given that they work to earn their money and were able to earn in those top brackets would want to pay in that much.

ETA:forgot the link

http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=164272,00.html

[kscwgirl]

Thanks for that chart, Lynette.. like that graphic style, makes it easier to read. :)

[lizzyfizzy]

You have to know that The Wall Street Journal was just bought by the same people that own Fox News which is the biggest republican propaganda machine in the country :)

thank God since every other facet of main stream media is run by the liberals. :)

[Traci Reed]

I get that they earn more so they would get a larger dollar amount with the same percentage. My father is a millionaire many times over. We, on the other hand have been struggling for 5 years in an economy that's not for "the little guy" we work our butts off, go to school to better our lives, etc. There were many months in there where we couldn't make ends meet even though we were both working 80+ hours a week.

(IN MOST CASES) Wealth is no longer a measure of how hard you work, but rather, who you know, what family you were born into or the breaks you've had in life. So no, I don't think it's fair to exponentially lower the higher class' taxes and only give a $300 tax break to those of us who are working our asses off but weren't born into wealth, etc.

No, increasing taxes on the wealthy isn't fair either but most of these big companies are cheating their way around taxes with offshore accounts and dirty dealings anyway so I don't really care.

I walk a very fine line politically between conservative democrat and liberal republican, I'm not for or against either side, but I am for truth and knowledge and having the facts straight on the dirty dealings of both parties.

[Traci Reed]

thank God since every other facet of main stream media is run by the liberals. :)

That is the biggest load of bull. YES Hollywood tends to be liberal, but that's not true with normal news media outlets

http://makethemaccountable.com/myth/LiberalMedia.htm

[scarletsierra]

Actually I think it's fair to say that nearly all "journalistic" mediums are no longer objective. Honestly. It's really sad. I can't rely on ANY news outlet for unbiased, objective reporting anymore.

[lizzyfizzy]

mccain isn't giving the wealthy a tax break, he's just not raising their taxes. how is that a tax break? my dad is considered wealthy too and by what we claim every year- we are on the line. if obama comes in and raises my taxes, there are gonna be words. i have bills to pay, mortgages to make, i'm not running around with bookoo bucks burning a hole in my pockets, but lemme tell you...obama better keep his grubby hands off of my livelihood!

[Traci Reed]

Actually I think it's fair to say that nearly all "journalistic" mediums are no longer objective. Honestly. It's really sad. I can't rely on ANY news outlet for unbiased, objective reporting anymore.

This is the truth and why I do my own research. I NEVER watch the news or political stations and crap..they're all pushing their own agenda, whether it be conservative or liberal.

[lizzyfizzy]

Actually I think it's fair to say that nearly all "journalistic" mediums are no longer objective. Honestly. It's really sad. I can't rely on ANY news outlet for unbiased, objective reporting anymore.

true dat! i am very conservative and even fox news annoys me. i want unbiased reporting too!

[ColleenSwerb]

Shoot, look what I started :(

[Traci Reed]

Uh, Lizzy, did you see this?

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/12/GR2008061200193.gif

I do believe that's a higher tax break for the wealthy than anyone else.

[Traci Reed]

ah no worries, Lizzy and I go back and forth about this all the time, I still :wub: her.... (even though she's wrong...LMAO j/k)

[Traci Reed]

Lizzy unless you make 600 thou + a year, in which case can I move in with you?, I think you're ok from Obama's "grubby" hands.

[jessica31876]

I do agree with that...I just wanted to point out that those who make those higher incomes with a larger decrease are still paying a heck of alot.

[lizzyfizzy]

That is the biggest load of bull. YES Hollywood tends to be liberal, but that's not true with normal news media outlets

http://makethemaccountable.com/myth/LiberalMedia.htm

i am not even considering hollywood in my analysis, thats a whole 'nother can of worms. if you are blind that 80-90% of the media is controlled by liberals, your blind. how is it that all of the debate moderators in this campaign were outwardly liberal. everyone except elizabeth on 'the view' are extreme liberals. katie couric (supposed to be unbiased is clearly not!), nbc is owned by GE who is highly liberal, they replaced all their news anchors with all liberals, 85% of newpapers support liberal propaganda. i could go on. that's not even a tip of the iceberg.

and yes, traci and i love eachother :wub: , we just have 'words' when it comes to politics. :D

[Traci Reed]

Most of the "news" outlets you just pointed to are "opinion" outlets, not news outlets :P

Rush Limbaugh, the biggest liar in the HISTORY OF THE MEDIA is believed by some people like he's God when in fact he has a track record of spouting falsehoods and outright lies.

This is why I don't watch the news, I don't read the newspapers...all of this political talk on all sides is just opinion, not fact. I look at facts, personally :P

And Jessica, I wasn't attacking you at all, sorry if it came off that way. You have every right to vote for McCain or write in Bill Cosby if you want, just like I do..lol

I'm thinking of writing in Pauly Shore :wub:

[jessica31876]

yep watching the veiw everyday makes me nuts. I used to love Joy Behar but OMGOSH she has annoyed me to no end lately. I hate how they always cut Elizabeth off and they seem to think Obama is the best thing since sliced bread. . i am not even considering hollywood in my analysis, thats a whole 'nother can of worms. if you are blind that 80-90% of the media is controlled by liberals, your blind. how is it that all of the debate moderators in this campaign were outwardly liberal. everyone except elizabeth on 'the view' are extreme liberals. katie couric (supposed to be unbiased is clearly not!), nbc is owned by GE who is highly liberal, they replaced all their news anchors with all liberals, 85% of newpapers support liberal propaganda. i could go on. that's not even a tip of the iceberg.

and yes, traci and i love eachother :wub: , we just have 'words' when it comes to politics. :D

[scarletsierra]

Lizzy unless you make 600 thou + a year, in which case can I move in with you?, I think you're ok from Obama's "grubby" hands.

Not that it matters, but this aspect of the chart confused me. I thought Obama's plan raised taxes on any family making more than 250,000 dollars, not 600,000. Has he changed that? Link me up, people. I missed the boat on that one and I'm trying to stay as informed as humanely possible.

[jessica31876]

Oh I know that!! LOL I just thought to put into persepctive there should be a tax table to show the actual amounts. That graph was kinda misleading without seeing how much is actually paid in KWIM?

[Traci Reed]

According to that chart:

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/12/GR2008061200193.gif

There's no change for 200 to 600, unless the chart is incorrect

[ColleenSwerb]

Bill Cosby is a little nuts for me to write in.

Maybe I'll write in Dane Cook......cuz I really don't know if I can stomach voting for either of the other 2. And at least he's hot. I know Traci and I agree on that :p

[lizzyfizzy]

there's no big difference except from 600K and above. i guess i'm safe from obamas grubby hands! LOL! :p

[Traci Reed]

mmmm swoon!

http://www.frontrowking.com/Concert_Tickets/Pics/dane_cook1200416533temp.jpg

[lizzyfizzy]

ah no worries, Lizzy and I go back and forth about this all the time, I still :wub: her.... (even though she's wrong...LMAO j/k)

ya, we have a love/hate. mostly LOVE. :D

[Traci Reed]

there's no big difference except from 600K and above. i guess i'm safe from obamas grubby hands! LOL! :p

Thank God for small favors! LMAO

[jessica31876]

another thing I just thought I would mention while everyone is talking about taxable income those are not the only increases in taxes under Obamas plan as far as I understand. He has proposed tax increases on home sales, inheritances, retirement/401k. Anyone know anything about these?

[lizzyfizzy]

mmmm swoon!

http://www.frontrowking.com/Concert_Tickets/Pics/dane_cook1200416533temp.jpg

an instant wave of happy just consumed me. :)

[Traci Reed]

ya, we have a love/hate. mostly LOVE. :D

Lizzy hates that I make her step outside her box and think about other possibilities..I hate that Lizzy has more faith than I :thumbup:

[my4boys]

I found a thread over at DST that mentioned FOX News too and put my 2 cents in but I am not gonna do it here cause I love you all too much!!!!!!! That is all I have to say about that!!!! I do agree with who ever it was that said Rush is a liar though...never liked him not even a little!!!!!

[aggiefamily]

I am not going to state my opinions because my mind is made up and I seriously doubt anything will change it. I just wanted to pop in and say THANK YOU! Thank you for keeping the discussions civil, fun and nice. I just went to another digi site (you know which one) and am very surprised by the meanness of some posters. These are women that I once respected but now my feelings have changed.

Everyone is entitled to their own OPINION and should not be made to feel less of a person for that opinion. Nor should they be talked down to or made fun of for having a different opinion.

[Traci Reed]

AMEN to that Amanda!

[ColleenSwerb]

Yea totally! I love that about us here :) None of the political discussions have gotten nasty, and there have been PLENTY of them! Lol!

Long story short, SSD rocks my socks :)

[my3hens]

I agree as well. Politics really stresses me so I read and keep informed with all I can and try to make the decision I think is best for our family here but don't try to push my views on anyone. I have stayed away from the dst discussions because I get anxiety even reading the thread names LOL

[Kat Stokes]

I too tend to stay away from these types of discussions as well. I know what I believe to be right and what I want.

What I want:

FAIR TAX - I don't care if you make $100 or $1,000,000,000. Pay a flat 10% fee on what you make. I believe that is "fair".

I want the government to quit taking so much of my hard earned money and giving it to "social programs" that pay for people to sit on their arses and not better themselves.

I want politicians to stop the bickering and actually get something done and I want them to do it right the first time.

There are many other things that I really want (like for there to be no federal tax since it was supposed to be abolished after WWII was over) that I will never see happen. It's a very sad state that our country and economy are in. :(

Okay, I'll shut up now....

[my4boys]

Since I was old enough to vote I have always been told by my parents and others that the only opinion that should matter is YOUR OWN....No one else has the right to think for you!!!

[scarletsierra]

I am not going to state my opinions because my mind is made up and I seriously doubt anything will change it. I just wanted to pop in and say THANK YOU! Thank you for keeping the discussions civil, fun and nice. I just went to another digi site (you know which one) and am very surprised by the meanness of some posters. These are women that I once respected but now my feelings have changed.

Everyone is entitled to their own OPINION and should not be made to feel less of a person for that opinion. Nor should they be talked down to or made fun of for having a different opinion.

Word.

[Becca Bonneville]

Amanda rocks!!! Woot!

[my4boys]

I am not going to state my opinions because my mind is made up and I seriously doubt anything will change it. I just wanted to pop in and say THANK YOU! Thank you for keeping the discussions civil, fun and nice. I just went to another digi site (you know which one) and am very surprised by the meanness of some posters. These are women that I once respected but now my feelings have changed.

Everyone is entitled to their own OPINION and should not be made to feel less of a person for that opinion. Nor should they be talked down to or made fun of for having a different opinion.


Don't know how I missed this one but YOU are so right Amanda...I did get sucked into a couple of those threads but I was playing nice!!!!

[lizzyfizzy]

we truely are blessed to be surrounded by the most opinioned yet respectful people in the digi-community! amanda stated it perfectly. i wub everyone, even if your views are liberal...hehe...LOL!!!! :D

[my4boys]

i wub everyone, even if your views are liberal...hehe...LOL!!!! :D


agreed

[Traci Reed]

Dang after wading through some of those threads at DST (I haven't been there in months) I must say I need to not leave my bubble anymore..

[Kat Stokes]

LOL!!! I get a rage-y kinda feeling when I read the threads at DST. It really does seem as if no one has any respect for one another over there.

I think I'll join Traci in that bubble....

[Traci Reed]

woot woot! Come on in Kat.....mwahahahahahaha!

[my4boys]

I am thinking that is a really safe place to be right now!!!

[Traci Reed]

I don't bite!!







Hard..... :D

[crecia27]

Yep. All my instructors have just said that the WSJ is no longer a reliable source of information and should not be used in reports unless it is an older issue before they were bought.

Interesting. So all of your professors think there is no bias in any other media??

[Traci Reed]

Interesting. So all of your professors think there is no bias in any other media??

Oh no way..most media we're not allowed to use, but we were allowed to use the WSJ until it was bought :) Most professors require unbiased media, especially for political topics..which is hard to find nowadays :unsure:

[AmyM]

You have to know that The Wall Street Journal was just bought by the same people that own Fox News which is the biggest republican propaganda machine in the country :)

Just for the record, there's quite a few democratic propaganda machines out there too.....the huge majority of the media. I don't think any of the major news outlets are unbiased. Not a single one. I'm seriously disgusted by it all and I'll be glad when Nov 4th has come and gone.

[cheltzey]

So did it bug anybody in the VP debate when Biden said that having the rich pay more taxes was PATRIOTIC? I'm so glad that he decides in what manner people are to show their patriotism.

And here's my other issue...these are just the tax plans that are currently on the table. The ones that look good for the election. We all know that these change the moment they get into office. So I don't think that stressing over these graphs is going to help anything. I think the important thing is to look at voting histories on tax issues...I think that will give a better indication of where we are headed than their beautiful plans that are pretty much guaranteed not to come to fruition.

[my4boys]

Just for the record, there's quite a few democratic propaganda machines out there too.....the huge majority of the media. I don't think any of the major news outlets are unbiased. Not a single one. I'm seriously disgusted by it all and I'll be glad when Nov 4th has come and gone.

AMEN Amy :)

[my4boys]

I don't bite!!







Hard..... :D



LOL!!!!

[nikkiARNGwife]

All this talk about taxes just makes my head hurt...you're going to find somebody with some opinion and an article to support each candiates plans...one day I see one saying obama's is best..one day McCain...the problem is most of us average joes who don't understand all the fine print on these plans can only depend on what we hear/read. And honestly right now...from both sides it's just political blah blah blah to win the white house. Will we actually see what they promise? Maybe..maybe not...all I know is this "spread the wealth" idea of obama's scares the crapola out of me.

[Traci Reed]

Just for the record, there's quite a few democratic propaganda machines out there too.....the huge majority of the media. I don't think any of the major news outlets are unbiased. Not a single one. I'm seriously disgusted by it all and I'll be glad when Nov 4th has come and gone.

Certainly, there is no unbiased big media, this is why we should be doing non-big media research. To take any channel's word on it is wrong.

[nikkiARNGwife]

And here's my other issue...these are just the tax plans that are currently on the table. The ones that look good for the election. We all know that these change the moment they get into office. So I don't think that stressing over these graphs is going to help anything. I think the important thing is to look at voting histories on tax issues...I think that will give a better indication of where we are headed than their beautiful plans that are pretty much guaranteed not to come to fruition.

lol we were posting at the same time...i totally agree :)

[Traci Reed]

So did it bug anybody in the VP debate when Biden said that having the rich pay more taxes was PATRIOTIC? I'm so glad that he decides in what manner people are to show their patriotism.

Yes, that was wrong. Definitely. I was MORE annoyed by the repeated use of the words "mavericks" and "energy producing state" and the obvious skirting of the question with "Well I may not respond to the question the way you or the moderator would like me to..."

In truth it was all a bunch of drivel from both sides. :unsure:

[crecia27]

I am not going to state my opinions because my mind is made up and I seriously doubt anything will change it. I just wanted to pop in and say THANK YOU! Thank you for keeping the discussions civil, fun and nice. I just went to another digi site (you know which one) and am very surprised by the meanness of some posters. These are women that I once respected but now my feelings have changed.

Everyone is entitled to their own OPINION and should not be made to feel less of a person for that opinion. Nor should they be talked down to or made fun of for having a different opinion.

:thumbup: And even if you didn't agree with Traci, how could you get mad at her with those cute pouty lips staring at you? LOL

[cheltzey]

I was MORE annoyed by the repeated use of the words "mavericks" and "energy producing state" and the obvious skirting of the question with "Well I may not respond to the question the way you or the moderator would like me to..."

Yeah, Palin shot herself in the foot with that one. Just answer the stupid question!!!

[Traci Reed]

LMAO...mission accomplished!

No one has to agree with me..most of you won't ;) I'm cool with that! I'm just feeling particularly passionate today :)

[crecia27]

Oh no way..most media we're not allowed to use, but we were allowed to use the WSJ until it was bought :) Most professors require unbiased media, especially for political topics..which is hard to find nowadays :unsure:

I got SOO jaded a few years ago when I worked for a company that was publicly going through a bad time. The crap that was allowed to be printed and were just outright lies really amazed me. I guess I'd lived a sheltered naive life till then! I'm with you now, I try to avoid them all!

[AmyM]

People. Get your stones and aim. :wub:
Obama's "economic" plan (and a lot of what his campaign stands for) for the most part is nothing but socialism. It's redistribution of wealth and it is unfair and unjust. If you're not familiar with it I would say just read up on what socialism is. Then go check out socialist countries that have all these "free goodies" like Obama promises- nationalized health care, etc... check out those places. See what their health care plans are like and how long they have to wait for treatment. See how high their unemployment levels are. Just look into it and see if that is what you want for this country, because mark my words and I'll bet you ever dime of my scrapping budget for a year that when Obama gets into office that's exactly what you'll get. The bail out was the first step.
I'm not thrilled with each point of McCain's policy but at least it makes sense and it doesn't thrive on a socialist structure. You don't raise taxes and spend more money when your country is in economic trouble. You stop pandering to the folks asking what you're gonna give them. You stand up and say as JFK did, ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for you country. Enough is enough. We are broke people!
Just wanted to add my ever unpopular opinion. There's always gotta be a rotten apple around somewhere, might as well be me :D

[mrsmbm]

"There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin." - Linus

:D

[Traci Reed]

While I agree on some of your points Amy and do not believe that either plan is perfect (or even good), I want you to be aware that the free healthcare is only for children...

Obama wants to build on the existing system of employer-sponsored health care by creating and expanding government-sponsored insurance programs until everyone who wants coverage has it. He would mandate that all children be covered and that all large businesses provide coverage or pay toward public insurance plans.

[scrapmonkey]

Well, my work site blocks DST, so I don't have to worry about that mire, but I am enjoying the info and discussion here. I agree that every news station has a bias, BUT I've been enjoying CNN's little "fact check" segments where they have the facts of certain statements made by either party checked by outside non-biased groups and determined true or false (and if false, what the truth is). That's the only time I really listen to them. Otherwise it's blah blah blah for whatever candidate.
My only criticism of any tax plan when it comes to the wealthy, they usually find so many loopholes because they can afford accountants, planners and lawyers to figure out ways to avoid them as much as possible. I think what we really need are some cleaning up of the tax rules/laws so that there are fewer loopholes and tax "havens".
On a side note, the company I work for (a very large multinational company) has a Political Action Committee, which until recently I thought had a bias (more Republican), but this weekend they sent out a note with links to find out about the other candidates/parties running (like the Green, Constitution or Libertarian Parties) so as not to appear biased.

[nikkiARNGwife]

People. Get your stones and aim.
Obama's "economic" plan (and a lot of what his campaign stands for) for the most part is nothing but socialism. It's redistribution of wealth and it is unfair and unjust. If you're not familiar with it I would say just read up on what socialism is. Then go check out socialist countries that have all these "free goodies" like Obama promises- nationalized health care, etc... check out those places. See what their health care plans are like and how long they have to wait for treatment. See how high their unemployment levels are. Just look into it and see if that is what you want for this country, because mark my words and I'll bet you ever dime of my scrapping budget for a year that when Obama gets into office that's exactly what you'll get. The bail out was the first step.
I'm not thrilled with each point of McCain's policy but at least it makes sense and it doesn't thrive on a socialist structure. You don't raise taxes and spend more money when your country is in economic trouble. You stop pandering to the folks asking what you're gonna give them. You stand up and say as JFK did, ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for you country. Enough is enough. We are broke people!
Just wanted to add my ever unpopular opinion. There's always gotta be a rotten apple around somewhere, might as well be me

No rotten apples from me..I totally agree with you...as I said his "spread the wealth" scares the crap out of me.

[Traci Reed]

oh here's the McCain side I left out..my bad

McCain, by contrast, would upend the current employer-based system and stimulate the free market to create more affordable coverage for everyone. He would do that with a new tax credit of $2,500 for individuals and $5,000 for families to be applied to the cost of a health insurance policy. The 177 million people now covered by employer-sponsored health care would see those benefits taxed as income.

[aggiefamily]

"There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin." - Linus

:D

OH that is GREAT!

[Traci Reed]

I think it's entirely plausible to have a fair political or religious discussion without bashing, as evidenced by today's post. :)

I don't agree with everyone and I most certainly am not agreed with by most people but I have respect for everyone. Everyone's made their own political and religious views based on their own lives and it would be unfair of anyone to attack those views.

The only people I can't stand are a) the ones who attack the other side and b) the ones that make their opinions based on nothing but the way the media has influenced them. I just ask that people do their own research and make up their own minds..don't let Fox or MSNBC decide for you :)

[cheltzey]

I'm not saying that Obama's socialist (I'm not saying he isn't, either)...

But anyone interested in the potential outcomes of socialism needs to read "Road to Serfdom" by Hayek. It's classic political/economic reading and worth the effort if you're really interested and concerned.

[Traci Reed]

Aren't we seeing the outcome of a capitalistic country? The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, the government is a runaway train, elections are a joke, it's impossible to change anything in this country because the party system just sits there vetoing everything, etc etc...No political system is good, IMO LOL

I think I'm gonna go live out in the woods far far away

[Kat Stokes]

I think I'm gonna go live out in the woods far far away

I thought you did already!!! :p

[Traci Reed]

I thought you did already!!! :p

Heh..I still pay taxes so I'm not far enough out yet! I should go sit in a shack like the unibomber and talk to the trees!

[cheltzey]

Hayek illustrates how socialism leads to National Socialism (i.e. nazis) and the complete loss of freedom for everyone.

The problem with our "capitalist" society is that it's socialism parading as the free market. At least according to Milton Friedman. I'm not as far out as he is, but I'll quote myself when I win a Nobel Prize...not that that seems to mean much anymore.

[Traci Reed]

Ok I'm off to school to get some edumacation so that maybe one day I'll be complaining about tax hikes for the top 1% too! woot! lmao

[Kat Stokes]

Heh..I still pay taxes so I'm not far enough out yet! I should go sit in a shack like the unibomber and talk to the trees!

Stop and pick me up on the way.... :D I'm so tired of this busy city life!!!

[lizzyfizzy]

People. Get your stones and aim. :wub:
Obama's "economic" plan (and a lot of what his campaign stands for) for the most part is nothing but socialism. It's redistribution of wealth and it is unfair and unjust. If you're not familiar with it I would say just read up on what socialism is. Then go check out socialist countries that have all these "free goodies" like Obama promises- nationalized health care, etc... check out those places. See what their health care plans are like and how long they have to wait for treatment. See how high their unemployment levels are. Just look into it and see if that is what you want for this country, because mark my words and I'll bet you ever dime of my scrapping budget for a year that when Obama gets into office that's exactly what you'll get. The bail out was the first step.
I'm not thrilled with each point of McCain's policy but at least it makes sense and it doesn't thrive on a socialist structure. You don't raise taxes and spend more money when your country is in economic trouble. You stop pandering to the folks asking what you're gonna give them. You stand up and say as JFK did, ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for you country. Enough is enough. We are broke people!
Just wanted to add my ever unpopular opinion. There's always gotta be a rotten apple around somewhere, might as well be me :D

ummm. one word. amen.

i suppose i am as rotten as they come then cause i am a 20 something hispanic conservative female living in one of the most liberal states..LOL!

[lizzyfizzy]

Ok I'm off to school to get some edumacation so that maybe one day I'll be complaining about tax hikes for the top 1% too! woot! lmao

i like when you talk hillbilly.

[AmyM]

Aren't we seeing the outcome of a capitalistic country? The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, the government is a runaway train, elections are a joke, it's impossible to change anything in this country because the party system just sits there vetoing everything, etc etc...No political system is good, IMO LOL

I think I'm gonna go live out in the woods far far away

Right now we are seeing a little peek of what happens with socialism and big government. We are seeing what happens when government sticks its nose in the free market where it doesn't belong. Possibly with good intentions (the community reinvestment act in the 70's, etc) the govt. has attempted to be egalitarian and legislate what they see as economic justice and fairness, which has brought us to this point. I think it was pretty stupid to force banks to loan to people who couldn't pay the money back just because of the color of their skin and/or where they live. All in the name of fairness we have ruined many institutions in this country because we are so afraid of failing to be politically correct. I think it is deplorable that a person would judge another based on their skin or nationality but I also know that the government has no place telling businesses, private sector, and free markets that they should be the agents of tolerance, change, or whatever the new buzzwards are. Business should be business and we already have laws on the books to fight discrimination. We are seeing what happens when government plays Robinhood and sticks its big nasty hands in the cookie jar assuming that they know what to do with our hard earned money and we don't. Capitalism is not perfect but when you compare it to socialism (the gateway drug to communism) people come out so much better. For the most part, even the poorest of the poor in this capitalist society have it so much better than other nations around the world. Big government has proven itself time and time again to be oppressive and destructive to people, all while hiding under the guise of equality and fairness. So I guess that no I don't think this mess we're in is due to capitalism or any of those big bad rich corporations who provide those jobs we say we don't have enough of. I think it is due to lack of personal responsibility, incompetence and corruption in government, greed, entitlement mentality, and a pathetic excuse we've had for government leaders over the last almost 20 years. And probably a bunch of other stuff.

About those taxes not being raised on those making less than 250,000 a year. That's nice but what about the people who do make more? I dont' want their hard earned money redistributed to my wallet. They earned it, let them keep it and let them decide what to do with it. For a person running a business making say 300,000 a year with 5 employees what do you think will happen when their taxes are raised to around 40%? That's a bring home of approximately 180,000. Then say they pay each employee 30,000....which is 150,000, leaving them with the same amount. That person is not going to have enough profit to keep their business afloat and you've got 6 people instantly out of a job. This is what happens when you raise taxes and go down the road of wealth redistribution. All of those "wealthy" people who can "afford" the tax increase are suddenly not so wealthy and unable to create jobs for the rest of us. Granted not all of them are in those exact circumstances but I think you will find that a great many are.

My father's business that he inherited from his father is one example. No he doesn't make anywhere near the tune of 250k a year but he's already hurting with taxes. He's had many years in the negative, been broken into, swindled, never payed by some people, etc.. etc.. etc... but he's never asked the government to bail him out. He gets up every morning and tries again and I think we have lost some of that drive and spirit here in this great nation. America has the second highest business tax in the WORLD. To me it is simple. Will I go pay a few thousand for Jimmy Choo when I can get a similar looking pair at Payless for 20 bucks? Um. No. That's simplistic but it's the principle I'm trying to speak about. You want more jobs and more capital flowing in the system, be friendly to those who can create them and put their money where their mouth is. It's not perfect but it works better than the socialism option.

Yeah, it's harder to make ends meet. We are lower middle class and we've had to make some hard choices. I know a girl who's been complaining about the state not providing insurance for her child while she's driving a brand new car. Sell the darn car and get something to where you can afford the insurance on your own without leeching off the system. That's a good example of what I'm trying to say here. Our priorities are upside down in this country and it really saddens me. I think we're in for a rough ride either way and I'm not a happy camper about Nov 4th. I wish to goodness that Huckabee could have gotten in there and revamped the tax system because that's what we need more than anything right now.

Ok, love y'all disagreements and all. I have things to do and ramble too much because I am just too passionate. I'm glad this is a civil discussion. :)

[AmyM]

And if you hadn't guess by now, LOL, yes if I ever finish my degree(s) when I get a little older I am planning to run for public office. Don't worry, I won't get far because I won't play the scratch my back and I'll scratch yours game. They'll hate me. :D

[AmyM]

i like when you talk hillbilly.


:D :D :D :D that's the best part of this discussion! :D

[my4boys]

And if you hadn't guess by now, LOL, yes if I ever finish my degree(s) when I get a little older I am planning to run for public office. Don't worry, I won't get far because I won't play the scratch my back and I'll scratch yours game. They'll hate me. :D

Well you know what Amy...if I lived in NC I would totally vote for you !!! I am loving the "I won't play" that should be your motto!!! YOU GO GIRL.....

[Kim]

Wow that took a lot to wade through! Great posts though girls.

I will be soo thankful when the voting is over.

My main issues with the taxes is that raising taxes on people of higher income is basically punishing them for prospering. It is like telling your child that for every A they bring home on their report card they have to have another chore added to their list. Eventually, where is the insentive? I know thats an extreme example... but we rely on the weathy for our jobs. They either own the company or they play a key part in our workplace.

That being said I have no idea what solution tax-wise would work...

[meganmecrazy]

People. Get your stones and aim.
Obama's "economic" plan (and a lot of what his campaign stands for) for the most part is nothing but socialism. It's redistribution of wealth and it is unfair and unjust. If you're not familiar with it I would say just read up on what socialism is. Then go check out socialist countries that have all these "free goodies" like Obama promises- nationalized health care, etc... check out those places. See what their health care plans are like and how long they have to wait for treatment. See how high their unemployment levels are. Just look into it and see if that is what you want for this country, because mark my words and I'll bet you ever dime of my scrapping budget for a year that when Obama gets into office that's exactly what you'll get. The bail out was the first step.
I'm not thrilled with each point of McCain's policy but at least it makes sense and it doesn't thrive on a socialist structure. You don't raise taxes and spend more money when your country is in economic trouble. You stop pandering to the folks asking what you're gonna give them. You stand up and say as JFK did, ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for you country. Enough is enough. We are broke people!
Just wanted to add my ever unpopular opinion. There's always gotta be a rotten apple around somewhere, might as well be me

AHHHH! I guess I will have to be a rotten apple with you since I totally agree with ya here!!

[EveRecinella]

People. Get your stones and aim. :wub:
Obama's "economic" plan (and a lot of what his campaign stands for) for the most part is nothing but socialism. It's redistribution of wealth and it is unfair and unjust. If you're not familiar with it I would say just read up on what socialism is. Then go check out socialist countries that have all these "free goodies" like Obama promises- nationalized health care, etc... check out those places. See what their health care plans are like and how long they have to wait for treatment. See how high their unemployment levels are. Just look into it and see if that is what you want for this country, because mark my words and I'll bet you ever dime of my scrapping budget for a year that when Obama gets into office that's exactly what you'll get. The bail out was the first step.
I'm not thrilled with each point of McCain's policy but at least it makes sense and it doesn't thrive on a socialist structure. You don't raise taxes and spend more money when your country is in economic trouble. You stop pandering to the folks asking what you're gonna give them. You stand up and say as JFK did, ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for you country. Enough is enough. We are broke people!
Just wanted to add my ever unpopular opinion. There's always gotta be a rotten apple around somewhere, might as well be me :D

Denmark, socialist country, lots of free goodies, sorry, no long waits and unemployment at an all time low....just saying.....don't paint with such a broad brush.....

[ColleenSwerb]

Denmark, socialist country, lots of free goodies, sorry, no long waits and unemployment at an all time low....just saying.....don't paint with such a broad brush.....

Word. From what I remember about the Universal Healthcare discussion we had a few weeks back, Cananda's system is pretty darn good.

[Traci Reed]

Denmark, socialist country, lots of free goodies, sorry, no long waits and unemployment at an all time low....just saying.....don't paint with such a broad brush.....

Woot woot :) Thank you Eve :)

[Stacey42]

Random unemployment rates for comparison

http://indexmundi.com/united_states/unemployment_rate.html
http://indexmundi.com/denmark/unemployment_rate.html
http://indexmundi.com/canada/unemployment_rate.html
http://indexmundi.com/france/unemployment_rate.html
http://indexmundi.com/australia/unemployment_rate.html

I don't like Obama's tax plan and I don't like McCain's health plan.

But I doubt either plan in their current forms will make it through Congress anyway

[DawnMarch]

I don't agree that Obama is a socialist or the various other scare tactics comparing him to Communists (castro) or Nazis. Being in favor of helping the poor and ensuring that your country has a safety net and an afforadable healthcare system does not make you a socialist and certainly does not start you down the road to Naziism. Let's face it people, it would be nice if churches and charities could help all the people out there who need it, but it's just not happening. And it would be nice if the leaders of our biggest banks and businesses could control their own greed and self-interest, but that rarely happens either (golden parachutes, anyone?).

Capitalism is a great system, but completely uncontrolled capitalism can be disastrous as we saw in the Great Depression. I mean, come on, should we go back to the days before there were child labor laws? Before OSHA required safe work places? When a business could refuse to serve a person because they were black? Thoughtful government intervention is unfortunately necessary sometimes to control some of the uglier tendences that can come from pure greed. Capitalism harnesses the energy and enterprise and even the greed that lives in the hearts of humans, and usually puts it to good use, but it isn't a panacea.

[Traci Reed]

I don't agree that Obama is a socialist or the various other scare tactics comparing him to Communists (castro) or Nazis. Being in favor of helping the poor and ensuring that your country has a safety net and an afforadable healthcare system does not make you a socialist and certainly does not start you down the road to Naziism. Let's face it people, it would be nice if churches and charities could help all the people out there who need it, but it's just not happening. And it would be nice if the leaders of our biggest banks and businesses could control their own greed and self-interest, but that rarely happens either (golden parachutes, anyone?).

Capitalism is a great system, but completely uncontrolled capitalism can be disastrous as we saw in the Great Depression. I mean, come on, should we go back to the days before there were child labor laws? Before OSHA required safe work places? When a business could refuse to serve a person because they were black? Thoughtful government intervention is unfortunately necessary sometimes to control some of the uglier tendences that can come from pure greed. Capitalism harnesses the energy and enterprise and even the greed that lives in the hearts of humans, and usually puts it to good use, but it isn't a panacea.

OMG really Dawn! I'm so sick today and haven't a coherent thought in my head so I'll follow you around the boards and agree with everything you have to say http://www.tracireed.com/ctgirls/images/smiles/notworthy.gif http://www.tracireed.com/ctgirls/images/smiles/iheartyou.gif

[mlewis]

Word. From what I remember about the Universal Healthcare discussion we had a few weeks back, Cananda's system is pretty darn good.

I don't know about that - we have friends in Canada, and they wait ridiculously long times for regular care.

[kscwgirl]

I don't agree that Obama is a socialist or the various other scare tactics comparing him to Communists (castro) or Nazis. Being in favor of helping the poor and ensuring that your country has a safety net and an afforadable healthcare system does not make you a socialist and certainly does not start you down the road to Naziism. Let's face it people, it would be nice if churches and charities could help all the people out there who need it, but it's just not happening. And it would be nice if the leaders of our biggest banks and businesses could control their own greed and self-interest, but that rarely happens either (golden parachutes, anyone?).

Capitalism is a great system, but completely uncontrolled capitalism can be disastrous as we saw in the Great Depression. I mean, come on, should we go back to the days before there were child labor laws? Before OSHA required safe work places? When a business could refuse to serve a person because they were black? Thoughtful government intervention is unfortunately necessary sometimes to control some of the uglier tendences that can come from pure greed. Capitalism harnesses the energy and enterprise and even the greed that lives in the hearts of humans, and usually puts it to good use, but it isn't a panacea.


I absolutely, totally agree with every word of this. :thumbup: