so, what IS middle class income?

[Julie Billingsley]

recently both Obama and Romney have stated that middle class household income is around $200,000-$250,000 a year. I do not want to get political here, but BOTH candidates have declared middle class to be around that range. Those numbers are crazy high in my opinion, but I realize that different regions of the US might have different numbers. So I was wondering what is middle income in your area of the country?

:: please do not go ranting or cheering for either candidate in this thread. Let's just discuss what middle class income is. Thanks! ::

[YepBrook]

That range of income-earners they are referring to as "middle class" is actually the upper-middle class. The ones at the tippity top of the middle.

[LJSDesigns]

I agree with Brook, that is way upper middle class.

[Nikki Epperson]

Originally Posted by Julie Billingsley

recently both Obama and Romney have stated that middle class household income is around $200,000-$250,000 a year. I do not want to get political here, but BOTH candidates have declared middle class to be around that range. Those numbers are crazy high in my opinion

They seem high to me too. And by those numbers we are the lowest of the lower class for sure.

[Lyd]

Yep - seems high to me too. I have no idea what the range is for the true middle class these days, but I consider us to be pretty regular, middle class folk, and we don't make that much money. No we don't.

[YepBrook]

I just went a did a little digging...

“Is $100,000 middle income?” Stephanopoulos asked.

“No, middle income is $200,000 to $250,000 and less,” Romney responded.

At least in the case of Romney (and like you said, Obama has said 250K also), he was giving a top # of where the middle class "ends". These are the people who are worried about being taxed. So, when they say they won't raise taxes on the middle class, those 200K earners are wondering if they won't be taxed, and whether that candidate will consider them middle class.

[NeverendingJen]

I guess I consider middle class to be from about 75K- 200K per year. but then I'm a broke military wife, lol, so those numbers seem fabulous to me. I'd feel very rich if we were lucky enough to earn that much

[deebirks]

One thing I've noticed over the years is that no one calls themselves rich. People who are clearly rich call themselves middle class. These same people, when asked, will guess the "average American" makes about $200,000/yr when in fact the average American makes more like $50,000. But Brooke is right, this is about people who want to be assured their taxes won't go up.

[origami]

I think in economics, the middle class is usually defined as a professional class. If you have a family that has 2 professional incomes, then middle class would indeed be somewhere between $200-250K per year. I think a lot of us aspire to be middle class, but we aren't really. Maybe culturally, but not when it comes to income. I think the true middle class is basically comfortable and I honestly don't think we have that these days. I think if you look back to the Fifties and Sixties, there was a bigger middle class because they could truly afford college and a house. I just don't think people can really afford these essential items anymore, not really, and at the same time save for their later years.

[mariewilcox]

But teachers are professionals and a 2-teacher household is lucky to make more than 60K a year up in this part of the country. So, obviously, there are different classes of "professionals" - doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, etc.

[origami]

I think that when we think of middle class these days, we've really changed the definition from what it has traditionally been, which is educated, salaried and, most of all, comfortable. Can you pay for a college tuition without significant loans? And at the same time pay off your mortgage comfortably? Plus save for retirement? Because if you can't pay for your child's tuition, they aren't going to continue in the middle class. And if you can't pay your mortgage, you don't have property, which is middle class. And if you can't save for retirement, then you won't be middle class in your old age.

A lot of students are going into enormous debt these days, which can't be reduced in bankruptcy court. How will they afford houses later for their families? Or save for retirement? I think that's why this is become such an important point in the upcoming elections.

Of course, middle class in America isn't just income-based, it's cultural. I think a lot of us are probably not middle class when it comes to income, but we may well be as far as our cultural outlook.

Is that $30K per year the highest that a teacher in your part of the country can aspire to, after perhaps receiving a master's degree and having taught for say 20 years?

[mummytothree]

OMG if that is the case we are probably considered at poverty level!!!

I always considered us (my family) as middle class, my hubby has a good paying job, we have no debit and have some savings but if I compare us with those numbers (even if they did mean that as upper middle class) I don't think we would even be considered lower middle class!!!

[jessica31876]

I think it can vary greatly. Your area of the country you live in. The cost of living as compared to income. The number of people in the household. I know with five in our family we never came anywhere close to that amount. Heck it would take 5 or 6 years for my husband to make that much when he was working and that was really great years income wise. But we always did ok.

[mlewis]

Originally Posted by origami

Is that $30K per year the highest that a teacher in your part of the country can aspire to, after perhaps receiving a master's degree and having taught for say 20 years?

I can't speak for Marie, but my husband teaches 4th grade in a rural county at a title 1 school, and he does not make much over that 30k. And maxing out with a Master's Degree after 20 years is somewhere around $46k. Six years of school for that little money and a stressful job is not very encouraging.

And I think that 75k-200k is a REALLY wide range for middle class!

[newfiemountiewife]

Originally Posted by NeverendingJen

I guess I consider middle class to be from about 75K- 200K per year. but then I'm a broke military wife, lol, so those numbers seem fabulous to me. I'd feel very rich if we were lucky enough to earn that much

This is what I'd consider middle class also.

[SmallMoments]

Originally Posted by mlewis

I can't speak for Marie, but my husband teaches 4th grade in a rural county at a title 1 school, and he does not make much over that 30k. And maxing out with a Master's Degree after 20 years is somewhere around $46k. Six years of school for that little money and a stressful job is not very encouraging.

And I think that 75k-200k is a REALLY wide range for middle class!

It definitely depends on where you teach. We max out without a masters at just over $50k and that's after 15 years. I'm not sure what the masters max is... I haven't gotten mine yet. That said I teach at a school with 75% free and reduced. We aren't a title 1 school but we have a couple in our district.

My husband teaches at an alternative school and makes about half of what I do.

I'd agree that middle class starts around $75k and that the 200-250k is the tippy top. We are barely middle class! Lol

[origami]

Then you should look at what they can afford in your part of the country. If at 60K, that couple can afford a house, to send their kids to college, and save for retirement, then I'd say they are middle class.

But I'd also say that teachers are woefully underpaid, for the most part. Are they professional? In education and preparation, yes. In what they get paid, not really.

[joelsgirl]

Originally Posted by origami

Of course, middle class in America isn't just income-based, it's cultural. I think a lot of us are probably not middle class when it comes to income, but we may well be as far as our cultural outlook.

I think this is pretty true. There is a couple in our church in the States who are in their early 30's, and he makes $300,000 a year, but they don't live excessively (in comparison to the rest of the folks at our church) and I would still classify them as upper middle class, while we make like a tenth of that, but I still think of myself as middle class. (Though we couldn't live on that salary if we were permanently in the US)

Our families live in Arkansas, and our parents make about $125,000. They are middle class. They drive nice cars, have nice houses, vacation in nice places, etc.

[LJSDesigns]

I just realized I am poor.

[mariewilcox]

Is that $30K per year the highest that a teacher in your part of the country can aspire to, after perhaps receiving a master's degree and having taught for say 20 years?[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately 30K is on the high end for a teacher with a master's and experience. There has been a pay freeze for the past 5 or 6 years up this way so no raises in that long. Our immediate area is fortunate in that we have some very good schools despite the low pay scale. Even in the "richest" communities up here 2 teachers would never have a 6-figure income.

[mariewilcox]

Originally Posted by Loriebug66

I just realized I am poor.

I am less than poor

[nun69]

I think we fall in middle class (we can afford our house payment, sending my DD to college with no debt and I will ALWAYS receive my Navy retirement until I die ) ...even though we don't make $200K a year, we both have full time gov't jobs and together probbaly make roughly around 90K a year. And now I just realized I am poor LOL!!!!

[kelleighr]

Oh, I love this discussion!

I like to think of our family as middle class. My husband brings home the bacon while I bring in a decent part time paycheck working at home in the digiscrap industry. I get to be a stay-at-home-mom. We live below our means and save for retirement and college for our kids, but we drive cars that are 15 years old and dying. I coupon and make food from scratch, but I also get my hair cut every 5 weeks and a friend just came out to wax my eyebrows, which feels like mega-luxury to me. We are comfortable in our lifestyle, but we don't have any "toys". It's a good life.

I think the key is that we are working to "Live like no one else, so we can live like no one else," if you know what I mean.

We definitely make WAY below "middle class" as defined by the politicians.

I always assumed that "middle class" meant $50k-$100k. Shows what I know!

[deebirks]

Wow. This discussion has been interesting (to say the least) and I was so confused that I actually looked up middle class. It has (surprise!) meant different things to different people at different times.

There are two main definitions: one of them is people who live and work in the city doing business as opposed nobility (who own land) and peasantry (who work land). However, to some people it means people who earn enough to rival nobility.

This is as the heart of the confusion. People who earn significantly more than most of the population ever will are using middle class to mean, "I'm not nobility but I make enough to rival them." To the rest of us this means rich.

On the other hand, many people use middle class to mean, "I'm not rich, but we're not poor." I mean, the median income of $50,000 for the US is more than double the poverty level, so it's certainly middle class by this definition. $60,000 or $75,000 is definitely middle class.

Then again, it depends on the area. When we were looking for a house they started at $300,000 but my brother bought one for $75,000 in his town. So maybe income isn't the whole story.

[tanyiadeskins]

We are a middle class family but I can say with 100% certainty...we still struggle now a days, even at almost that much money, granted we have no debt and pay everything off every month.

[lovely1m]

Uh, I guess I thought I was middle class, but according to these definitions I am not. I just considered that since I have a good, steady job and can afford to live. lol

[Shawna]

If middle class is somewhere in the range of $75k-200k then as a mostly one income family I would say we are poor

My husband teaches 4th grade in a Title I school that has been on a pay freeze for the last four + years. So as a 9th year teacher, he's still making the same salary he did as a 4th year teacher and he actually took a pay cut when they took away the $1500 Title I bonus that same year they instituted the salary freeze. It's been very frustrating to see everything else go up in price (gas, groceries, etc.) but not even get a cost of living adjustment to offset that Even when he gets his Master's degree he won't make all that much more than he does now, of course that's if & when they remove the salary freeze so he hasn't been in too much of a hurry to spend the money to go back to school.

[nesser1981]

I feel poor! LOL! I consider our family like lower middle class, however, but income standards we're no where near those!

[scrap2day]

Unfortunately 30K is on the high end for a teacher with a master's and experience. There has been a pay freeze for the past 5 or 6 years up this way so no raises in that long. Our immediate area is fortunate in that we have some very good schools despite the low pay scale. Even in the "richest" communities up here 2 teachers would never have a 6-figure income.[/QUOTE]

I know college librarians in my area. Same thing. They have at least one masters if not more than one masters, sometimes an additional Ph.D.; many years experience; no summers off (although vacation time can be pretty good in comparison to other jobs). Many of same requirements of full time faculty (committees, additional meetings, sometimes publishing requirements). In the 30K range. Maybe a bit more for some but not what you would expect for what is required in education and what they are required to do.

[glumirk]

I think middle class is above the poverty level, and the reason there is question on the higher end is because there is no "line" drawn like there is with poverty.

I mean, my inclination is to say that anyone not living paycheck-to-paycheck is above the poverty level, but I had a friend making $90K as a single woman in AZ who was living paycheck-to-paycheck, so that definition doesn't seem to work.

I would say that all of us digi scrappers are probably in the middle class because we can afford a computer with a program and to buy supplies for it. The Upper Class is harder to define. There are people like Mitt Romney and Warren Buffett who don't have to work because of their Capitol Gains, and that is considered upper class, but what about the big CEO's who still put in 40+ hour weeks? Do they HAVE to, or are they just that kind of people?

DH works as an optical engineer trying to fix the process on the production lines of the various laser products, so he works daily with immigrants who simply have to put things together. One of them told him that he is so lucky that he is an engineer and that we can afford for me to stay home with our kids, yet we can still afford to fly out for my sister's wedding even though we had already made our annual trip out west. Later in that conversation they discovered in round-about terms that her and her husbands combined income was more than ours.

I think we are all human and see what other people can afford that we can't, but in reality the standard of living is going way up all across the board. Some people give up a nicer living situation for smart phones and cable, but those are pretty nice luxuries, ya know? And we may be digi scrapping instead of going on a trip to Barbados.

[origami]

I know college librarians in my area. Same thing. They have at least one masters if not more than one masters, sometimes an additional Ph.D.; many years experience; no summers off (although vacation time can be pretty good in comparison to other jobs). Many of same requirements of full time faculty (committees, additional meetings, sometimes publishing requirements). In the 30K range. Maybe a bit more for some but not what you would expect for what is required in education and what they are required to do.

These people may be professionally qualified, but they are not making a professional salary. Given the hours they work, they aren't really doing much better than what, $14 an hour? Given a regular work, but wait! They are salaried! And if the sole breadwinner is only making $30k, it is likely their kids qualify for reduced price meals too. How in the world are they paying off their grad school loans? Don't forget that they usually have to take courses in the summer to keep credentials up!

[clearskies]

I would put "middle class" at 50K-150K and "upper middle class" at 150K-300Kish.

I do agree that "rich" is a relative term and the more you have the higher the magic number becomes...

[ayaandjudah]

It really is regional. I'm in NY metro and teachers here max out above 100k.

Here in my area making 30 would be impossible to live. Here middle class is well over 100k. But even in the most expensive city in the country, I'd still put 200-250 at way upper middle class. So I do think both candidates are looking at the upper limits of who should receive tax breaks.

[SeattleSheri]

Teacher salaries are highly variable based on lots of characteristics -- education level, tenure, location, etc. I'm quite familiar with the wages of teachers in WA state as my husband teaches AP politics and gov't. While I don't want to divulge my husband's salary, I will tell you that my youngest son's kindergarten teacher made $86k last year (it's all public record) with similar credentials.

Of course there is a lot of variability with the definition of middle class. There is obviously a different cost of living based on where you live. So all things considered, it's not always apples to apples.

For tax purposes, I'm considered a "high income earner", so there are many tax credits I don't qualify for (such as child care exemptions, etc) and my employer even subjects me to higher healthcare premiums and deductibles based on my salary.

96% of households make less than $200K, so clearly that is not a good benchmark for middle class just by virtue of the definition. The median household income is $50K.

Anyway, I always find this interesting.

[rach3975]

I consider us middle class, maybe upper middle class. But you guys are right; it's as much cultural as it is an income level for us. With me as a SAHM, we're at about half of what the politicians are declaring middle class. Our income is right around the median (but significantly lower than the average) for our county, and it's considered a wealthy county.

We're comfortable enough that we can pay our mortgage fairly easily, our mortgage is our only debt, and we can put money aside for our kids' college education every month. That said, our cars are older, we don't go on nice vacations or shop at expensive stores, we don't have the latest and greatest "toys," and we certainly won't be able to pay 100% of the kids' college costs even with our plan to have most of my income go toward college savings when I go back to work. A single family house here probably starts at around $300,000.

[TeriBeary]

my question is that a one or two person working family? If I was with my ex, we'd be making just over $100K in BC and that is comfortable, if you don't have a ridiculous mortgage. I make $40K and I will be very happy with that, but I do also get child support to help with the kids.

[jessica31876]

Another thing I wanted to add into this is how much benefits a person gets from the job. Employee benefits can really add up and but they may not always mean more money in your paycheck. Some employers offer amazing benefits to make up for a lower salary

[MommaTrish]

Well dang.
We've always aspired to $75,000 income... now I think we're low balling it.

And, yeah I've always known we were poor. lol

[SeattleSheri]

Originally Posted by TeriBeary

my question is that a one or two person working family? If I was with my ex, we'd be making just over $100K in BC and that is comfortable, if you don't have a ridiculous mortgage. I make $40K and I will be very happy with that, but I do also get child support to help with the kids.

It's based on household so the figures don't differentiate between how many contributors there are.

[MommaTrish]

Oh and all that talk about teacher salaries and origami's question

And if the sole breadwinner is only making $30k, it is likely their kids qualify for reduced price meals too. How in the world are they paying off their grad school loans?

That question is what has kept me from going back to school. I am soooo close to earning my degree, but there's no point because there's no way I can afford to pay off the debt I have now, let alone adding more years of college debt to it.

[marlathrall]

Hmmm... I think I consider middle class to be about $50,000-200,000... In my area, we are all pretty much poor. lol. I've got a four year degree and make $1400 a month working in the public sector and that's considered a "good" job around here.

Luckily, my husband is a successful farmer and we do good some years. Of course, our income varies depending on the harvest, weather, market but our house and student loans are paid off. Tractors and combines cost so much that I know I will always be able to afford groceries, etc. My purchases really add up to nothing compared to gas for combines, you know? We are doing well, but I wouldn't consider ourselves upper middle class by no means.

Basically, I think it depends on what area you live in, maybe family size? I don't know.

Totally an interesting conversation though!

[Stacey42]

I tend to define lower class as if you qualify for reduced lunches, which is $45,000 a year of a family of 4 here. If you make more than that you are middle class until you make about $300,000. But it is so subjective to where you live.

Going with the old definition of middle class, we are middle class who live among the peasants. I live in a poor rural area but my husband has a professional job. By the standards of the area we are middle class, but if we moved 50-60 miles north, toward DC, we would be poor. We couldn't afford to buy a home, let alone save money for anything if we lived in a more expensive area. Here you don't need a 6 figure income to own a house, save for retirement, etc. But you do need more than $60,000.

We can afford for me to be a SAHM while the kids were little but we sacrificed savings for that. Right now we have house and older cars. We can save some money but we don't necessarily consider college as a route to a better life. Our mechanic makes more money than we do.

[mariewilcox]

Originally Posted by Stacey42

We can save some money but we don't necessarily consider college as a route to a better life. Our mechanic makes more money than we do.

This is so true! And with the expense of 4-year colleges sky rocketing serious and thoughtful discussions need to take place before a student just jumps into a 4-year college. Cheyanne and I have been discussing having her go to the community college for 2 years (we have 3 locally) and earning her core credits while living at home and working part-time rather than piling up excessive college expenses (even with a college fund who knows how much it will cover in another 5 years when she graduates HS). We have the University of Maine system with one campus in our back yard and she can choose which one to attend after earning her core credits based on what she wants to study.

We have also talked about how a 4-year degree isn't the only route - her brother makes a great wage as a level 3 paramedic and firefighter - never went to a 4-year college, got his paramedic degree by attending night school at CC. Many trades (mechanics, plumbers, electricians, HVAC, etc. do very well. Time will tell where the job market lies in another 10 years, but my friends and family members who are engineers are struggling with no increase in wages for several years and higher COL, layoffs, no job market to speak of, etc.

[wyovol]

The middle class is a huge range, I believe. To me, for my area of the country, I would say it is from $35K-250K.

My husband and I are in professional positions. My husband was an attorney and I am librarian. I used to work at a university and my salary was in the mid $40s, great benefits, about 2 months off per year (vacation, holidays, etc). While we were both working those jobs we made close to $100K, no kids. And we lived paycheck to paycheck because we made stupid financial decisions. Then we had a kid, my husband got laid off, and he became the SAHP for 6 years. He went to back to school to change careers --- to become a teacher -- and spent 2.5-3 of those years looking for work.

Anyway...I am now a school librarian at a private K-12 school and he is teaching part time at the same school. We are making close to $50K and are comfortable at this point. Our private school salaries don't even come close to what the local public schools pay (starting salary for public school teachers in our county is around $35K, with a masters which is what most teachers from the local university end up with -- it is a 5 yr program), but they are very fair since we don't work for about 11 weeks out of the year. Would I like to make more? Yes. Who wouldn't?

I think that "middle class" is more than just a set of numbers on a paycheck. And I realize that my household salary would not give me the same standard of living in another section of the country. But I would expect that if we had similar jobs we would make a salary that would match the standard of living for that area, if that makes sense.

[origami]

Originally Posted by wyovol

I think that "middle class" is more than just a set of numbers on a paycheck.

True, I totally agree. However, I think the worry for a lot of us is that we are never going to do as well as our parents did and that our children may even be worse off than we are. We may feel middle class, but is it sustainable for our kids? That's the problem and that's why people are talking about it so much with the elections coming up.

By the way, one thing that I really LOVE about digiscrapping is that when I buy a kit here, I know the money is going to real people with real families. Traci, Kristin, Shawna, Krystal, Ru, Misty, etc. Robin too. I might not be able to buy much every week, but I know over time that I'm not just getting amazing art for my scrapbooks, but that I'm making an investment in real people and real families. I know that none of them are getting fabulously wealthy off designing, but I do want to say that I would much prefer buying from SSD than a Big Box craft supply store.

[YepBrook]

Originally Posted by origami

By the way, one thing that I really LOVE about digiscrapping is that when I buy a kit here, I know the money is going to real people with real families. Traci, Kristin, Shawna, Krystal, Ru, Misty, etc. Robin too. I might not be able to buy much every week, but I know over time that I'm not just getting amazing art for my scrapbooks, but that I'm making an investment in real people and real families. I know that none of them are getting fabulously wealthy off designing, but I do want to say that I would much prefer buying from SSD than a Big Box craft supply store.

THIS!!!

[deebirks]

Originally Posted by origami

By the way, one thing that I really LOVE about digiscrapping is that when I buy a kit here, I know the money is going to real people with real families. Traci, Kristin, Shawna, Krystal, Ru, Misty, etc. Robin too. I might not be able to buy much every week, but I know over time that I'm not just getting amazing art for my scrapbooks, but that I'm making an investment in real people and real families. I know that none of them are getting fabulously wealthy off designing, but I do want to say that I would much prefer buying from SSD than a Big Box craft supply store.

Yep!

[wyovol]

Originally Posted by origami

True, I totally agree. However, I think the worry for a lot of us is that we are never going to do as well as our parents did and that our children may even be worse off than we are. We may feel middle class, but is it sustainable for our kids? That's the problem and that's why people are talking about it so much with the elections coming up.

oh, I completely agree...While I feel middle class (and think that our lifestyle is middle class), I do not feel like we are as "settled" as my parents were at my age. I do worry about what my kids' future is going to be...I am not automatically assuming that they will go to a 4 yr college. I honestly don't think that higher education is going to look for them what it looked like for me.

By the way, one thing that I really LOVE about digiscrapping is that when I buy a kit here, I know the money is going to real people with real families. Traci, Kristin, Shawna, Krystal, Ru, Misty, etc. Robin too. I might not be able to buy much every week, but I know over time that I'm not just getting amazing art for my scrapbooks, but that I'm making an investment in real people and real families. I know that none of them are getting fabulously wealthy off designing, but I do want to say that I would much prefer buying from SSD than a Big Box craft supply store.

Yes...me too. I try to buy all of my crafting supplies from smaller crafting organizations (my local yarn shop, etc.).

[Sherri Tierney]

We live in a pretty poor area over all. I think the average income for a family of 4 a few years back was less than $27K. We have a lot of single parents and a lot of one income families. From what I recall our free/reduced lunch rate was somewhere around 80%.

[jessica31876]

Just had another thought on this about college. My husband never graduated in fact he did not go past ninth grade. He did learn several trades from the time he was a teenager he was a mechanic and then went to work as an auto body tech. People saying trades pay very well are right. We defenitely made more money then a lot of our neighbors but we also lived in rural area outside Orlando where housing was much less expensive. If we lived in the city I do not think we could have afforded to live on what he made. Both of my boys have always talked about working in public service. My son always wanted to become a police officer. Where we live the incomes for those in law enforcement is considered high among construction workers and a lot of menial labor jobs and very high unemployment. A lot of teenagers also aspire to work military jobs and retire through that. My nieces husband is army as is my nephew and my sister. Not sure if they will all retire but I know that if they all left the army they would make a lot less in private sector jobs.