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Old 10-13-2013, 03:56 PM
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Default Advice needed: Divorce issue with kids... Ugh.

Warning... this is quite a book. I totally understand if you just want to skip over this thread and read about people's fun stuff. This is not that thread.

So just to catch everyone up to speed.... I asked my husband for a divorce back at the end of June. He agreed. I had already hired a lawyer. He doesn't have one. We didn't end up filing until almost the end of July (basically because my lawyer's paralegal was inept, but she has since been fired). Anyway, we had a case management conference delay, but that finally happened at the beginning of September, and then we had a mediation session at the end of September. We agreed on almost everything at that point, but we just ran out of time and have to finish in another session, which is coming up during the first week of November. I hope to finalize things then.

During mediation, we agreed that the house will go to me (it's underwater right now, since we owe about $15K more than what it's probably worth), and the kids will primarily live with me. We decided who would take what debt, etc. and really only have two things left to discuss: a visitation and holiday schedule, plus dividing up some personal property that we have at the house.

Before I get to the current issue, first I have to go back in time a bit. I'm know that some of this will be TMI for some of you, and might cause you to think of me differently, but that's ok. I am willing to risk it. Four years ago, I had an affair with someone from high school (reconnected via fb). Mind you, this is not something I EVER expected to do... and it was quite a shock to my family and friends as well. It lasted about 6 months before Arthur found out. It was ugly when he did....him threatening the other man and his family, etc. Police involved. My boys were spared from all of that, thankfully, but it left the rest of us with scars that have never fully healed. Arthur and I did the counseling thing for about a year, but there was never significant improvement. I feel like I stayed out of guilt. My boys were 8, 10 and 12 at the time. I wanted to try to keep the family together. I went to counseling on my own as well, and I continue to do that even now. Arthur refused to get counseling on his own. During the last 4 years, things have been strained. Not arguing in front of the kids, but there has definitely been tension. Arthur has had some blowups at the boys, and with my 14 yo Noah in particular.... something that Noah cannot forgive or forget. Let's just say that the relationship between Arthur and the boys is not really a close one. It doesn't help that he works nights, but there would still be a problem even if he worked days. He grew up in a family that just doesn't express emotions. Not once have I EVER heard him tell the boys that he loves them. He doesn't hug them, doesn't cry in front of them.... nothing. It makes me sad. His idea of showing affection was to coach their t-ball and football teams. Seriously.

Fast forward to last winter. A friend of mine from school died unexpectedly. I had a wake up call. Decided at that point that I wanted to ask for a divorce. Life is just too short. Tried to drop some hints over the course of the spring but was really scared of what his reaction would be. Finally dropped some big hints over Memorial Day weekend. Over the month of June, I became suspicious that Arthur was dating someone. Confronted him at the end of June and asked for a divorce. He said OK, and confirmed that he was indeed seeing someone.

Things have been fairly amicable since then, but Arthur has made it very clear to me on more than one occasion that he thinks that this is my fault and that it started because of my affair. He owns none of the responsibility for what came before that. He has continued to live here and has until the end of October to find another place to live. He doesn't make much money and is having a hard time finding anything. He stays every weekend with his girlfriend and her son and daughter, but he can't move in there because she lives in Section 8 housing. On the positive side, he is making more attempts to do stuff with the boys. They already know about his girlfriend and have met her and her kids. While they like them alright, they have said to me that sometimes they would just like to do stuff with Arthur (without everyone else). I get it, but Arthur does not. Fast forward to today. I was at my part time job when Arthur called. He wanted Noah and Benjamin to go to a corn maze with him and gf and family. Our youngest didn't want to go. I got on the phone with Benjamin and tried to convince him. He hung up on me. I was just getting out of work and had to pick up AJ (the 16 yo). When I arrived back at the house, Arthur was beyond pissed because Benjamin wouldn't go. Noah was in the car, but said he didn't want to go if Benjamin didn't go. Benjamin was crying in the living room and trying to tell Arthur that he just wanted to do something with him, and Arthur started screaming at him telling him it wasn't going to happen. I'm trying to comfort Benjamin and keep myself calm. Arthur starts yelling at me and going off about how I can take it all and asking if I have told the boys that he is going to be living in the van because he has no place to go. He starts crying (which he has NEVER done in front of them) and then starts screaming at me about how this is my fault, etc. etc. I asked him to stop, which is when he screamed that he doesn't play by my rules. OMG. It was awful. I don't know how to deal with this. He is acting like I am the devil. I'm afraid that the boys are going to end up hating him. That is not what I want. I want him to spend time with them. I thought that the corn maze was a great idea.... but I also know that he can't just spring things on them and expect them to be excited. They're not that spontaneous.

SO.... I just don't know how to deal with all of this. How do you make kids want to do things with their dad, when they don't? How do I help them to see that this is not their fault, short of reassuring them of that myself? I feel like I have tried my best to foster their relationship with their dad, despite the fact that he thinks I just want them all to myself? Today was very traumatic for all of us, and I sense that as October 31st gets closer, it's going to be bad. I understand that it is hard for him to move out of a house that he's lived in for 20 years, but I can't excuse all of his behavior. We're going to be parents forever, and I just want us to be able to communicate reasonably. I just feel like he is never going to let go of the victim role that he has himself in. This sucks.
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Old 10-13-2013, 04:20 PM
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Don't really have any advice, but sending super big hugs!
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Old 10-13-2013, 04:20 PM
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Oh Lori *HUGS* I'm sorry you're going through this.

I've told you before that I went through a divorce when my daughter was 11, and it was def the hardest thing I've ever been through. Even now, 4 years later, her dad talks badly about me to her. He's nice to my face, but I've heard stories from friends and family members about things he's said to them about me in front of her.

I don't think there's an easy answer. I'm sure he IS scared about where he's going to go and how he's going to make it work. It's sad that he can't recognize that his boys just want to spend time with him alone. Unfortunately, I don't think it's your place to make that happen. As their dad, he has a right to spend time with them as he sees fit. All you can do is continue to speak positively about their dad to them and encourage them like you've been doing. Maybe it's something you can bring up in the next round of mediation?

Once the court order is final, they'll have to go whether they want to or not, so hopefully your positive attitude will rub off on them.

Again, I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know how awful it is!
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Old 10-13-2013, 04:24 PM
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Oh, Lori... I just want to give you a big hug... I really don't have any advice - my parents divorced after I graduated college. The only think I can really relate to is the relationship between father and children... my father was never one of those that said I love you or one to really spend time with me - mostly because he was always working... so when he did want to spend more time with me - even though I was an adult - I struggled with my emotions... I always wanted to be daddy's little girl and here I kept thinking that he didn't want to spend time me then and now he does? Also, my father got really nasty during the divorce and really talked bad about my mom because he was loosing control of the situation... he had his family (my grandparents) telling him to fix the marriage - even though that wasn't an option... and he has co-workers who went through divorce and were giving him "advice"... it was horrible - I just wanted nothing of that, I was sick of all the name calling and that he was talking down about my mom, etc - in fact, I finally I dropped all communication with him for 5 years.

I hope he realizes that the kids are going to need time to adjust... it's hard to see a person security just disappear... and if he is going to want to spend time with them, that is positive, he is going to have to think of them and not himself.
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Old 10-13-2013, 05:31 PM
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I have no personal experience but when I was reading your story, I thought of a situation you'll want to cover in your mediation. What if he has visitation and the boys don't want to go? Right now you have no agreement so the boys are still getting that choice. What happens when you agree he'll have the boys for a weekend and they don't want to go? What happens when he's supposed to have them and wants to go out of town and can't take them that weekend? Does he get to choose another weekend? Make sure those situations are covered in your agreement.

I'm sure Arthur is scared to death. I kind of get the feeling that he might be really attached to "stuff" (just from knowing you so long and knowing he doesn't like it when you clean things out) and to me, having to move when you are attached to things is really, really difficult. I imagine he's literally an anxious mess and it's always easier to blame than to accept blame.

And I'll be the good friend and say that if things were OK between you, you never would have been tempted to have an affair. So he's seeing that as the catalyst for all this, but I'm seeing that things were wrong before the affair. Honestly, I'd probably set my teens down and tell them about it because I guarantee you Arthur is going to tell them out of spite. Better to have them hear it from you than discover you've been hiding it. You don't have to give them details, but I'd at least be honest. You know your boys, so you need to make that call.
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Old 10-13-2013, 05:38 PM
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{{{HUGS}}}.....I agree that he will have to give them time to adjust, but the kids will still have to "adjust" to the situation. ......I know it will be hard for everyone, but hopefully your good attitude will rub off on them and I definetely agree with Libby on the "don't say bad things about him" cause that will just come back to hurt you in the long run.....again big {{{HUGS}}}and unfortunately, if your hubby stays as angry as he is, he may just tell the boys about your "affair" so I woudl think ahead of time *IF* that were to happen how you would explain that to the kids without lying to them....
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Old 10-13-2013, 05:58 PM
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I have no words of wisdom, but I wanted to let you know that I read your story and I'm thinking of you and your boys <3
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Old 10-13-2013, 06:05 PM
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I have no advice to offer, but didn't want to not reply after reading. Hope it all works out for you and the boys.
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Old 10-13-2013, 06:33 PM
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I am wondering why it is important to you that he take responsibility for his actions. Sure, it would be nice if he owned up, and sure, it would be healthier for him as a person and partner to his new GF, but it is not necessary that he do so when it comes to you, kwim? That's why you are divorcing. He is free to think, do, say what he wants as are you. You are no longer responsible for him or his emotions, so revel in your freedom and move on emotionally from him and his feelings.

I understand if you are wanting closure, but sometimes, you have to give yourself what other people can or will not. From what you have described of him or your relationship, it seems highly unlikely he will ever do so, so you will need to see what a waste of your time and energy it is and will be to get someone to change who doesn't want to. It seems as if he thought his affair was a 'tit for tat' thing after yours occurred and did not really have plans for an actual divorce. Maybe he just wanted to hurt you as much as he was hurt (is hurting?), and then thought that would fix things. I'm sure he is struggling (even if he has not said so) with his whole life changing without his consent and is coping the best way he knows how.

As for your boys, you will just have to tell them they do not get to choose until they are 18 to cancel or change a visitation. If the two of you were still together, they would not get to choose which parent lived with them in one household, so they don't get to choose which parent to see or not see when there are two households. They are at the age when they will have extra-currics, friends, etc. that may become an impediment, but you will have to do the best you can to get them to go as often as possible. It will not be fun and not be fair, but it is the right thing to do, so you will have to suffer through those times when they are crying, yelling, or otherwise doing everything they can to not go. You definitely don't want to set a precedent for allowing them to choose as the battle will just become bigger and uglier the longer it goes on.

I would have all three boys in some counseling, even if just short-term, to deal with this situation until it normalizes a little. I would also allow them the 'space' with you to cry, scream, throw fits, etc. so they know they can do that with you without negative consequences, and maybe that will help them to avoid the negative consequences of doing so in front of their father.

Divorce is hard and ugly and painful, but it is harder and uglier and more painful to be part of a relationship that is irrevocably broken. You can do this. Sometimes you just have to do it one minute at a time.

I would encourage you to check out the message board at steptogether.org if you want more emotional support and advice from people who have BTDT. It is mostly stepmothers, but there are also many birthmothers (what you would be), too, who could help guide you down this new road in your life.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:52 PM
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Going through divorce is hard enough and when the end is near, most people act irrationally and many tears and words are said and shed that probably shouldn't be. I have no sage advice even as a child of divorce and being divorced myself. It's hard and it sucks, but it does get better - for everyone - in time. Be strong, stop trying to place blame, and keep moving forward. xoxo
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Old 10-13-2013, 08:53 PM
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I grew up in a divorced family and am also divorced myself. I've seen both sides. My parents fought, refused to talk to each other, would make little comment about each other, my dad and I would end up fighting and a lot of it had to do with my dad marrying a woman barely older than me shortly after and expected us to all just get along. That rarely happens. It forever hurt my relationship with my dad. The one positive thing about it all though was that my parent agreed to have no set visitation schedule. I went to my dad's when I wanted to and stayed as long as I wanted. That made thing a lot easier on everyone. During my divorce, I wanted the same thing for my son. Luckily my ex easily agreed to it (he works on the road and could never have done set visitation anyway). If you think you can agree on this, I would highly recommend it. It's much easier on everyone especially with your boys being old enough to call and talk to dad when they want to. I agree that Arthur clearly never got over the affair and blames the failure of the relationship on that, but like LeeAndra said, you never would have had the affair if there wasn't already problems in the relationship. I am sorry you are going through all this. I know I did find it a lot easier to agree on things in the divorce process because I waited 2.5 years after I left and moved on to file. It was a lot longer than I would have liked, but I needed money and time to get it all figured out. Good luck!
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:27 PM
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I am so sorry!!! (((HUGS)))
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:00 PM
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I agree with everyone. I work with CPS cases and we see kids in foster care who don't want to visit their parents and it is so hard. You can't make your kids want to spend with their dad or even like them. I would agree get them into some counseling. They certainly know more about what is going on than you think. Even if for 4 years you never argued in front of them, they knew something wasn't right. And they are probably grieving right now. Counseling might be something they want but don't be surprised if they don't. I think your soon ex is very scared, scared for himself and the future and honestly, he may not know how to be a dad. Sounds like his schedule made him somewhat of absentee father. He may be bringing the gf and family as a buffer so he doesn't have to do all the work. And your boys know that and are pushing back. You may want to see if you can have in the visitation that a certain number of visits or hours are just with dad. And he may need a parenting class for dads. Don't talk bad about him in front of the boys or even where they might hear it and encourage them to talk to you or Arthur about how they are feeling.

I also agree that while the affair was not right, things weren't right to begin with if it happened. And Arthur failing to take responsibility for his part of the relationship ending is not helping and you probably won't get anywhere until he realizes his part in the divorce. But it sounds like your heart is where it needs to be, which is making sure your boys are healthy, safe, and happy.
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:45 PM
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Lori I have no words or advice - but please know that I am thinking of you and the kids - and I'm so sorry you have to go through this. Hugs! ♥

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Old 10-13-2013, 11:41 PM
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Thank you all so much for your thoughts and advice. Those of you who suspected that Arthur will tell the boys about the affair.... yup, that already happened. I knew in my heart that he would, even though our son Noah's counselor (who runs a Kids First program that we attended together back in July) told us that it would be very destructive and that the kids didn't need to know the "why". In Arthur's mind, he didn't want to look like the "bad guy" to the boys (and anyone else), so I knew that he would tell them. He went away on a scout trip with the two older boys back in August, and when I came into the house after they got back, my oldest said "He told us." (about the GF) and then his next question was "What happened four years ago?" I did talk to him later that night and explained (without much detail). I haven't talked to the younger two, but I feel like I probably should before he does. It sucks. I have made a point not to talk negatively about him in front of the boys. I have been very supportive of his relationship with them and have spent a lot of time over the last several years trying to justify his actions to them. At some point, he just has to own his actions, as I do. When I do something wrong with the boys, I own it and apologize when I should. Arthur got so angry at Noah once that he picked up a chair and held it up as if he was going to throw it at Noah. It was an awful scene. I got between them. Noah has NEVER forgiven Arthur for this, and I don't think that he will. When Arthur had calmed down, I talked to him about it and told him that he needed to apologize. While he admitted that he had crossed the line, he wouldn't even look at Noah and just said "Sorry" in a lame ass way, like he had done nothing wrong.

Noah has been in counseling for a couple of years now... and I am going to talk to his counselor this week to see about getting the other 2 in to see him as well, or meeting together. I know that there are also programs at the KidsFirst Center for kids to meet together in groups. I didn't realize until today how hard this is hitting my youngest.... he has seemed to handle this really well, and I check in with all of them frequently. Just talking to me is not enough though... clearly.

Kim, you are 100% correct about Arthur being scared and anxious. He sees this as something being done "to" him. He is so attached to stuff, it's ridiculous. I could post pictures but I'll spare you that. In our mediation, I agreed to give him a place in the basement and in the garage where he can keep stuff until the end of June. I am trying to be sympathetic and not force him out super quickly. I know that this is really hard for him. Two more weeks..... and at least after he moves out, things will hopefully settle down some. I know that he has people that he can ask for help if he needs it. I can't do any more to help him than I'm already doing. As it is, I'm paying everything, hoping that he'll save up some money to find a place to live. He has given me no money since mid September. Come November 1st, he will have to start paying child support. I don't know how he's going to afford it all, but he'll have to figure out a way.

Thanks again, ladies. I appreciate the support and wisdom.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:18 AM
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i have nothing to add except (((HUGS)))! i can't imagine that, having to go through all of that, AND add in the extra trauma to the boys. good luck Lori!
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:35 AM
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I'm so sorry you're going through this! It sounds like you're doing everything you can to help your kids through it. It doesn't seem like Arthur is going to change or improve his relationship with the boys anytime soon, so I hope the counselor is able to help them cope with the situation.
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:30 PM
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{{{HUGS}}}
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